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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, STATE OF FLORIDA CASE N0: 99-7430-CI-08 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG COPY SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC. Plaintiff vs LISA McPHERSON TRUST, INC. a Florida for-profit corporation, ET AL Defendants VIDEO DEPOSITION DEPONENT: SHAWN LONSDALE DATE: JULY 19, 2006 10:00 A.M. - 1:59 P.M. LOCATION: D & D REPORTING SERVICE 915 CHESTNUT STREET CLEARWATER, FL REPORTER: DENISE ANN HERROLD NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF FLORIDA AT LARGE \ D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 915 CHESTNUT STREET CLEARWATER, FL 33756 (727) 468-2002 1800-468-2003 FAX 727-468-2003 A P P E A R A N C E S: For the Plaintiffs: ROBERT POTTER, ESQ. JOHNSON, POPE, ET AL P.O. BOX 1358 CLEARWATER, FL 33617 For the Defendant: LUKE LIROT, ESQ. NOEL FLASTERSTEIN, ESQ. 2240 BELLEAIR ROAD STE 190 CLEARWATER, FL 33764 ALSO PRESENT: HELENA KOBRIN, ESQ. MICHAEL HARGETT PETER MANSELL I N D E X Direct Examination by Mr. Potter........ 4 Cross-Examination by Mr. Lirot.......... 142 Redirect Examination by Mr. Potter...... 145 E X H I B I T Plaintiff's Marked for Exhibit No. Description Identification 1 Photo 47 2 Photo 52 3 Photo 52 4 Photo 53 5 Photo 55 6 Photo 57 7 Photo 57 8 Photo 61 9 Photo 62 10 Photo 63 11 Photo 66 12 Photo 67 13 Photo 68 14 Photo 69 15 Photo 70 16 Photo 70 17 Photo 71 18 Photo 71 19 Permanent Injunction 79 20 Clambake Website 122 21 Postings by Proflex 141 22 Photo 147 S H A W N L 0 N S D A L E WAS CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. POTTER: Q. Mr. Lonsdale, would you state your name for the record, please, sir. A. Shawn, S-h-a-w-n, Lonsdale, L-o-n-s-d-a-1-e. Q. As I introduced myself earlier, my name is Bob Potter. I represent the Church of Scientology here today. A. Actually, you know what, could you do me a real big favor. I know Helena Kobrin and this gentleman and the two on the end, please. Q. Peter Mansell is sitting next to Helena and Mr. Mike Hargett is sitting next to -- A. Can I use your pencil? Q. Next to Mr. Mansell. A. Actually, you know what, does somebody have an extra pen. THE COURT REPORTER: There you go, sir. BY MR. POTTER: Q. The purpose of today's deposition is to ask you some questions about recent activity that you have engaged in. A. Uh-huh. Q. If at any time I ask you a question that you don't understand, please let me know. I'll be happy to rephrase it or restate it. There's only a feu rules that we have to abide by. Number one, it's very important that we don't both try to talk at the same time. If we talk at the same time, it gets very, very difficult -- A. Because we're using -- difficult for the Court Reporter. Q. Yes. So please try not interrupting me and I will try to avoid interrupting you. The other rule we need to kind of pay attention to is if you mear to say yes or no, it's very important that you say yes or no. If you say uh-huh or huh-uh, it's very difficult sometimes to understand what you mean. Having said that, can you tell me what your address is. Q. 510, 5-1-0, North Lincoln, L-i-n-c-o-1-n, Avenue, Clearwater, Florida. Q. And what is your occupation? A. Unemployed. Q. How do you make your living if you're unemployed? A. Well, it's pretty hard, but I got a couple bucks saved up. Q. So you're currently living off of savings? A. Yeah. Actually I had a yard sale about -- I think it was about three weeks ago and that helpeD out a little bit. Q. When was the last time that you were employed? A. I'd say maybe five months, three months, three to five months we'll put it that way. Q. And what was your occupation when you were employed? A. I was a clerk at a title company, real estate title company. Q. And what sort of work would you do there? A. Basic clerical. Q. And how long had you been employed there? A. Six plus years. Q. Do you own the home that you live at out on Lincoln? A. No. Q. Do you rent that home? A. Uh-huh (nods affirmatively). Q. Do you pay rent or do you otherwise -- A. I would assume that a rental means that I pay rent. Q. Pardon me? A. Yes, I pay rent. Q. Do you pay rent in cash or do you pay it through work and services? A. Cash, yes, cash. Q. Who is your landlord? A. Joseph R. Critchley. Q. Where does Mr. Critchley live? A. Wow, I don't know actually. I think they're in town. Q. Where do you pay your rent? A. You mean the amount? Q. No. Where do you pay it? How do you pay it? Do you pay it -- A. Oh, no. Yeah, I take it to their offices here in town. Q. You take it to his office? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. And where is his office? A. Down the street here. It's on -- it's right adjacent to the Church's sawmill or furniture restoration. Q. The Church of Sawmill (sic)? A. The Church's sawmill. Q. The Church's sawmill? A. The name of the street is -- Q. What's the name of the office, do you know? A. I just believe Critchley & Associates. Q. Okay. When did you first become familiar with Scientology? A. It's got to be a couple of years ago now. Q. And how was it you became familiar with them? A. Actually they became familiar with me, and that was -- I was doing a -- I went to a yard sale a long time ago, and I found this really neat -- actually that can -- that camera right over there. It was $5, and the poor lady assumed that it was broken evidently, and she was like, here, just five bucks. You know, I was like, you sure? And I mean I could se right on the side -- right on the base of it it had over a $200 lens on it, and of course I was under the assumption it was broken. So -- but sometimes with things like that, you know, you get to -- it may be a battery or something simple. So I went -- took it to the store and I just bought a new battery for it and put a new battery in it and bingo, it worked. And I was like, wow, you know, so what am I going to do with this beautiful camera that I have. I mean, I'm a snapshot guy basically, you know. So I took it back to her because it just, you know -- it just didn't seem right to get a five-dollar deal like that with her thinking it was broken. So actually she told me, you know, I don't care. It's somebody that had stiffed her on rent or something a long time ago, and she had found it in the possessions in preparing for a yard sale. So she goes, just do something good with it. I was like, well, okay. So I went down to one of the only film places still in town. It's right next to the Hess station downtown. The name escapes me. But he had a lot of black and white film that he had cheap. So I was like, you know, maybe I can do some sort of artistic project with it. So in doing that I picked it up and I was like, you know, walking downtown and I'm like, what the heck am I going to do. And the one thing at the time that stood out amongst everything downtown was the enormous homeless problem. I mean we had people sleeping on the sidewalk right out in the open. I mean, it was really, really ridiculous. Actually living in certain areas and one lady I even passed by had urinated on herself and sat next to the street with a sign that said, help me, for three days running. And I was like, you know, this story needs to be told. You know, especially since a lot of charity groups in the area were trying to do their best, you know, in other areas to try to help the homeless. And surprisingly enough, you know, in the downtown core, you know, with all the good supposedly that's going on down there, I didn't -- I didn't really see that anybody was actually helping these people. S I decided, you know, maybe if I could do some sort of project with it, I might be able to shine some light o the -- on the situation. And in doing that I took like a crap load of photos thinking that maybe I could use one of these self-publishing deals on the Internet, you know, where you can make your glossy-covered book and you don't have to go to a big printing house to do it, and I was going to try to put it in a format that was easy to read with a paragraph on how the person might have gotten there, what their daily life that they perceive it now to be and how their future looked to them as well. But in doing that I realized that, you know, a lot of these people are in real need of other help, you know, with substance abuse. Some of them actually are doing it because they prefer the lifestyle for some reason, but I guess maybe it's the freedom of it. But anyway in doing that I was able to at least compile enough photographic evidence to take to one of the City commission meetings and present them with the photos that they pass by every day on their way downtown and to go to offices and stuff and I was wondering -- I posed the question to them, Why isn't something being done about this? You know, this is what I have to pass by and live through every time I go down on a daily basis, you know. Why isn't this being taken care of, et cetera, et cetera. And in doing that I noticed, of course, being downtown with a camera with a big lens on it I guess it was just a little too conspicuous for, you know, Church security not to notice. So I originally noticed a lot of security-garbed individuals around me on a regular basis, and I started noticing the same faces and white vans and stuff seemed to be around every time I was like going to my car or certain just out of the ordinary things. And at first I was like, well, you know, seeing as they occupy the majority of our downtown core, maybe there's really nothing to it. You know, maybe it's just nothing. And I didn't really know who the Church was at the time anyway. So it was like, you know, here was this big organization which I knew was supposedly a church, but I didn't really know much about it. And of course in being downtown I tried to find some of their -- how would you call it. What do you call it when you go into a Christian church and go in for the services? What is that one -- is that the main church building for parishioners? Q. I'm not sure. A. Can somebody help me here? It's a worshipping center maybe. MR. HARGETT: Fellowship hall. BY MR. POTTER: A. Well, anyway, the church building where you go to receive your spiritual services. It's funny couldn't find one. And I was -- I was surprised that, you know, here was a church downtown that I thought maybe I could gain some more knowledge from and especially to answer my questions as maybe you guys are around or maybe I could notice some more faces that ha been following me and stuff, but I couldn't find like their center for the general public. And so I sort of let it sit on the back burner for a while, and was just content to do my homeless thing. But each time I was out it just started to get more and more obvious, you know, the watching and then I noticed cameras. There were a lot of cameras downtown and stuff, and that sort of piqued my curiosity so I started looking into the Church of Scientology. Q. So you -- you felt that people were watching you? A. It was a suspicion, but it wasn't a total one. I mean, it was open to consideration of course. Q. All right. so as a result of that I think you said you started paying more attention to Scientology? A. Uh-huh (nods affirmatively). Q. What did you do -- A. Well, I was just paying more attention to when I was downtown, seeing if there was really an overwhelming amount of it as the days mounted as I was down there of that attention. Q. Now, this -- this -- I'm sorry, let's go back to this camera for a second. Was it a snapshot camera or was it a video camera? A. It's sitting right there on the -- 35 millimeter. Q. 35-millimeter camera as opposed to a video camera? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Approximately how many days would you say you were downtown photographing the homeless? A. Wow. Well over a thirty-day period. It was so long ago that it's hard to tell you exactly. Q. When you say it was over a thirty-day period, was it 30 days or was it a -- A. Yeah. It was a continuous running project. I mean every time I'd have a free hour or a couple hours after work I'd go out and try to take some shots. Or every time I'd see a compelling scene, I guess I'd try to capture it. Q. And what happened with all these photos? A. Actually I presented them to the Clearwater Commission in attempts to have them go over them before I was to do a project with them. Hopefully they would be able to use them, you know, in some sort of a way to document, you know, the severity of the situation down there. Q. Now, you said you were going to do a project with them. Is this with the City Commission? A. No. With the photographs. Q. Oh, with the photographs? A. Yeah. Q. Did you end up doing a project with the photos? A. No. I ran into too many financial problems at the time. Q. And were those financial problems related to developing the photos and -- A. Yeah, that's where it got -- Q. So were the vast majority of these photos developed or not? A. Yeah. No, I managed to get them developed, but in doing that it sort of wiped out my bank account pretty quickly which didn't really consist of much anyway. But then of course the next step with dealing with those photos is getting them into the format that you need to present them in a portfolio-type situation so even that was a little more expensive and technical than I had originally thought. Because at the time I didn't have a computer or anything, so I was not really well aware of what it took financially to get something like that done, or technically I should say. Q. Did you develop them into a portfolio? A. No, pseudo portfolio. Q. So are you -- are these photos essentially in a stack, a stack today? A. A stack. Yeah. Well, they're divided into categories and stuff, you know. Q. Now, what was the attitude or reaction of the City Commission when you presented them? A. Basically they just -- the first -- the first time they just tried to pass me off on the police chief I think to try to get me convinced that they were actively involved in ongoing -- how did they put it -- not investigations, but ongoing problem-solving discussions in trying to do something with the downtown core and the homeless problem in it. Q. You said that that's the first thing that they did. What did they do ultimately? A. Of course, I inquired several times after that, you know, as to what was being done on a continuous basis, and they really didn't have much to say on that matter. They just sort of we'll get back to you. Q. Okay. And did you -- did you pretty much let the matter drop as a result of those communication or not? A. Yeah, pending. While, you know, I was pending answers, and when you can't get any answers an you wait and you wait and you're continually told to wait. You can only wait so long before another interest or other things in life pop up that you need to take care of before such a project. Q. Okay. Let's go back to the Scientology subject. How -- How did this lead to your next involvement or your next interest in Scientology? A. Of course doing the study on what Scientology consisted of and stuff like that, I ran into a lot of stories also being put in the newspaper guess at the time and stuff about how the property downtown was a lot of development. Avenues were being explored I guess, so to speak, with the new -- including the now and finished Super Power Building or S.P. Building. I think that's how it's referred to. It's just been -- you know, it's an interest in Clearwater in general and reading the paper and stuff like that. You know, you just sort of get more involved in it as you read and do a study. Q. So you did a study of Scientology and was that primarily through reading newspaper stories? A. No. Reading newspaper stories. Some of their own paraphernalia. I had -- one of my landlords at the time was -- what's his name now. Imre, I-m-r-e, Tozer, T-o-z-e-r. And we'd talk on a regular basis. I rented a house from him at the time at I think it was 914 Lotus Path. I'm not sure if the number was correct, but it's something like that. You guys probably have the address. He was relating a lot of old stories to me and stuff when he used to be part of the -- he was evidently head treasurer in East Greensted back in the day when L. Ron Hubbard was still alive and kicking. He would, you know, talk to incidents of -- or answer those questions, you know, of things that went on within the organization at the time, and a lot of financial problems that they were facing and in some cases even financial misdeeds that I found to be a little too curious for me not to look into. So of course with his little short stories he piqued my interest and sort of got into it now that I knew somebody who was such a high-level member because supposedly he was OT-8 at the time, which is, you know, the top level. It takes many years and many dollars to get to it and it's supposedly secret. So I was of course more than interested. So I went to the library and I picked up a copy of Piece of Blue Sky. I think Jon, J-o-n, Atack, A-t-t-a-k (sic). And in reading that, you know, I came -- of course there was some time -- time-logged tales in it of certain periods within the organization before, you know, the split with the new leader. But I wondered, since he had been in the organization so long, that maybe he would be able to shed some light or whether, you know, this gentleman's tale in the book was, you know, historically correct or not. So he came over to my house -- he came over to his house one day which I rented. And he came in and I was like, hey, you know, I was reading this book. And I was like do you know anything about, and I read him a couple of names that were mentioned in it. And he was like what are you reading from. And I showed him the book and he immediately freaked out, poor guy. I mean, he must be 70 something years old. And he was like this is all garbage and "F" this and "F" that and what the "F" are you doing with this and what the "F" are you doing with that. And he just literally freaked out which, you know, is something I've been noticing. So a lot of these -- a lot of so-called or self-proclaimed high-level members that I've been bumping into on a recent basis, they seem to follow a same pattern of lack of control. Just an observation on my point, but -- and since the Church is in here they might want to do some studies of that, anyhow... Q. What was the name of this book again that you mentioned? A. Piece of Blue Sky by Jon Atack. Actually if you'd like to read it there is a copy right in the Clearwater Library. Q. All right. So you read this book and you had some more conversations with Mr. -- was it with Mr, Tozer? A. Tozer, yes. He's an area landlord. He specializes in low-income properties. Q. Approximately what time frame is this? Was this recently or last year or the year before? A. Oh, this was -- yeah, this was right after the time period where of course I was doing the homeless project. Q. When was that, though, what -- A. Well, I'd like to say two years ago, but I think it was a lot earlier than -- well, maybe not a lot earlier. The time frame of maybe three years I guess. Q. So you're talking 2003 -- A. Yeah, you have a tendency -- Q. 2004 -- A. Yeah. You have a tendency to say two years maybe sometimes too long. Q. All right. So this -- when you read this book, was that around 2004, maybe 2005? A. Yeah. I would assume so. I'd have to do a little bit of research to find out when the exact dates and stuff, but we're in the ballpark somewhere. Q. You mentioned that you saw some -- you heard some stories about financial issues that you needed to look into? A. That I would -- that I'd like to look into. Q. My question was -- A. Or needed looking into. Q. Did you look into those? A. Somewhat just, you know, as far as hearsay would be able to tell you, and instances like -- Q. Well, what did you do to look into those? A. Actually I asked him a lot of questions since he was one of the head treasurers, which he revealed a lot of telling information about how the organization is structured as far as he knew, how many people were and were not paying their debts to other Scientologists or handing -- handling Scientology's financial angle I guess at East Grinstead, and I don't know if that concerned, you know, money coming in or going out, course case structures, stuff like that. Q. All right. Other than reading the book and talking to Mr. Tozer, what else did you do, if anything, to study Scientology? A. Basically I read everything I could find on it, which is way too diverse to get into technically here, but Church pamphlets. Of course, whatever I was able to glean from the Church angle from Mr. Tozer which was evidently an authority since he was such a high-level member, a public member I should say. He wasn't part of the guardian -- I mean, I'm Sea Org. Q. All right. Anything other than reading Church pamphlets, newspaper articles, the book and speaking with Mr. Tozer? A. Of course Internet connections at the library helped a lot, too, library research. They havE a lot of materials at the library of their own. Q. What sort of Internet connections would you refer to or read or study? A. Oh, geez, there's countless. Just countless Internet connections that you can read historic accounts on basically almost everybody that's out of the organization that was anybody. Q. Did you ever read any of the books that were written by Mr. L. Ron Hubbard? A. Yeah, I read Dianetics. History of Man. And, you know, early on in life I think I read a couple of his sci-fi novels, but they were under a different name. Q. Have you ever tried to join the Church or participate in the Church of Scientology? A. That's a serious question? Q. Yes, it is. A. Oh, okay. Absolutely not, no. I don't see why I would have to pay money for a spiritual enlightenment. Q. Is that why you -- you say that that's not a serious question or you kind of laughed at it. A. Well, actually, yeah. I mean, it's been posed to me as a joke several times already. Maybe that's why I referred to it as maybe not being serious. Q. But you think it's a joke because it requires a financial commitment? A. Well, not only that, but it consists of a great deal of common sense. I mean, in order to pay for common sense, I mean, one would have to be -- have no common sense I would imagine. Q. Well, you're wearing a shirt that indicates a Scientology minister? A. I know, it's brand-new. Actually it does have a back to it. Q. Chicago Scientology Volunteer Minister? A. Yeah. And if you'll notice, it's actually an older version. Somebody sent it to me for good luck. The anonymous mail I get is just incredible. Q. Well, normally if I see someone wearing a Scientology minister shirt, I would think that they were a member of that organization or a supporter of that organization? A. Good P.R. Q. Are you -- are you a member or a supporter of the organization? A. No. Obviously not. Q. Why do you wear the shirt? A. Basically to get your goat today. Q. Get my goat? A. I thought a lot of people would find it ironic that I would wear such a thing. I Q. All right. So I take it -- I'm getting the drift that you're not a supporter of the organization? A. Well, if you mean I'm paying the money, no. Q. No, no. I mean from a philosophical standpoint you seem to have a disagreement with the organization? A. Well, no. I wouldn't call it a disagreement. They have a disagreement with me. I mean, people are free to follow whatever they want in life. I just think it would be rather criminal to try to hold that, you know, as an unknown to somebody in order for them to pay for higher enlightenment on a plateau basis. Like a pyramid type-scheme. Q. I'm sorry. I didn't understand what you meant by that. A. Well, why don't we go back to ask your question again. Q. Well, my question was do you have a philosophical disagreement with the Church of Scientology? A. No. Q. Apparently you have a disagreement with some of their payment schemes or their financial -- A. No. In my opinion I would -- I would think that anybody who was trying to find what they offered, you know, would be much more satisfied mentally and emotionally if they were to find it in a way which they did not have to financially have an exchange for. I Q. What's your understanding of the financial exchange that is required in Scientology? A. Well, in order to be anything or do anything in Scientology costs -- well, there are some levels that are common sense that you don't have to pay for, but those more or less lead you into stuff that you have to pay for, whether it be an exchange for services within the Sea Org. as an adult and, you know, foregoing possibly your children's higher education in a normal manner for -- or a normal life. Or it could be such a thing as being a public member and being involved in some sort of investment type deals, as well as paying for the courses that you need to take. Or you can even -- you know, there's several different ways to do it, but the ironic thing about it is none of them, you know, consist of being free which the majority of the major religions in the world tend to rely on. Q. So you object to that portion of Scientology? A. Well, I object to the fact that you can't learn it supposedly outside for free, yeah, according to the Church. I mean you can, but. Q. Now, recently -- when I say recently, I mean the last six months, you apparently have been photographing the Church and Church people walking around the Church. Why have you done that? A. Why have I done that? Q. Why? A. I would like to refer to exhibit question mark over in the corner. Q. Well, I'd appreciate it if you would just tell me why you're photographing people. A. Well, that's the whole point of it. The funny thing about it is people kept asking me over and over why I was doing it, and it tended to be like a broken record. Because evidently nobody took that information and put it up lines, so to speak. So I was left to stand out on the street corner and do my business and have to field numerous calls to the police department of stalking and harassing from the Church. Even though in every single instance the reason why I was out there was made perfectly clear, not only to the police officer, but to their own security that I was doing a project. So eventually I was like, well, you know, I've had it with that. I've had it with the fact that everybody supposedly does not know what I'm doing out here and has to resort to such underhanded tactics as that rather than coming right now and saying, what are you doing, which they had done several times through other public agents I guess we'll call them. Q. But what -- A. So I decided to come up with, you know, an easy-to-read board that described it all in one quick easy read. Q. Tell me what project you were working on. A. Cult Watch, Pinellas Access Studios. Q. Can you tell me what that project is? A. Wow, it's still morphing. I mean, it's, you know -- I guess you could call it a documentary, but the more I get footage, the more the whole basis of what it is changes. So I can't really -- it's a tale -- a tale of -- a tale of the Church in our community I guess. Q. What did the project start out as? A. I didn't start it out with anything specific. I knew I was going to do a project, and I was content to let, you know, the subject matter take me in a direction that it needed to take me to tell a story so. Q. When did you start the project? A. About maybe a year ago, maybe. Q. And what was your idea in terms of this project when you started? A. That was the funny thing about it. I didn't really have an idea about it. I mean, it was something big in our community that needed to be looked at. Basically maybe that's the only thing. Q. And what -- what was it that needed to be looked at? A. Well, that was the specific thing I didn't have in mind. I mean I didn't have an idea of -- it's so broad and, you know, big it was like, well, how do you focus on one part of it or how do you focus even on it as a whole. You know, it's way too much to tell a story on. So in order for me to maybe be taking in a direction scene as I was lost for a direction on it, I decided just to go out and try to get as much factual background footage that I would be able to use, not using a story, knowing that, you know, some day it would fit in like with background or whatever. In doing that of course certain things, you know, presented themselves. It sort of took you in a direction of where the story, I guess you could say, put it or led it. Q. Did you discuss this project with anyone? A. Several people at work I think. I think I might have -- people in passing if they asked what I was doing with the camera, but I think it was more or less something very vague. Q. If someone stopped and asked you what you were doing with the camera, what would you tell them? A. Taking pictures. Q. If they asked you why you were taking pictures, what would you say? A. Working on a project. Q. If they asked you what project, what would you say? A. Well, the basis of it is unknown at the moment, but has to do with the downtown. Q. Were other people assisting you with this project? A. No. That's the funny thing about being poor. Unless there's money in it, nobody wants to help you. Q. At the time you were -- you started working on this project, were you still employed at thE title company? A. Yeah. Yes, I was. Q. So has the project changed over time? A. Oh, yeah, many times. Actually, you know what, can I get a refill? Q. Sure. Can you tell me how the project has changed over time? A. Specifics? Q. Yes. A. I think it's way too complex to get into. I don't think I can even relate for myself. I guess -- I guess I have so much going on with it that it's so hard to remember even some of the instances involved with what -- Q. Would you give me a general overview of how it's changed -- A. Turns, you know, and when -- well, early on of course it was security. They seemed to be very interested in me on a daily basis. And then the more interested they got in me, the more interested of course I got as to why they were interested in me. So after awhile I just sort of said, well, I can't really be bothered with what other people are thinking about it. I just got to go try and do what I need to do to get enough background shots and stuff like that that are unhindered. And that's one instance that's changed. The next would be of course all the countless police complaints on me over and over again. That took a long period of time. Then, of course, it changed with -- wait a minute, you know what. I did have a spot in time where I -- I had -- I thought I waE going to be able to do a specific segment on a couple of missing people. And I made up a quick missing poster. The two people on the poster were -- who were they now. Warren McShane and Marty Rathbun. MS. KOBRIN: Marty Rathburn? THE WITNESS: R-a-t-h-b-u-n. BY MR. POTTER: A. Those were the two. I thought I had a copy with me here today, but I guess I don't. Q. And these were people -- these were missing people? A. Well, you know, there was an Internet rumor that they were missing. Q. Missing from where? A. Missing from their post at the Church of Scientology and I believe it was Hemmet. Q. What's hemmet? Is that a person or a website? A. Actually it's one of the compounds that they have in I believe it's California. Actually maybE a couple of the Church representatives might be able tc elaborate on that. But there was a rumor that Marty ir particular was down here at the sawmill and maybe doinc like -- I think they call it the RPF, although I think they changed that to Estate Project Forest, one of those things. Q. What do you mean by RPF? A. I think it was short for Rehabilitation Project Forest. Q. Why were you interested in Marty being at the sawmill and doing an RPF? A. Let's put it this way. If I'm taking -- if I'm out there taking photos and stuff, getting a picture of a missing person would be like a really goo( angle to a story. You know, I mean it could be something that maybe I could use as a story. Q. And the fact that Mr. Marty Rathbun is missing is based upon an Internet rumor? A. Yeah. Q. And I'm sorry. He's missing from his post is what you said? A. At the time both of them were. Q. What does that mean, missing from his post? A. Well, he was former number two in the organization. Q. Mr. Rathbun or Mr. McShane? A. I think Rathbun was former number two and McShane was former number three. Actually I think Helena right next to you knows both of those individuals personally. Maybe she can shed some light on the fact that maybe they are or aren't missing since I was never able to. Q. Well, you learned from Internet postings that they were potentially missing from their posts. A. Internet websites put up there with supposed information that they were missing. Q. This would be their posts from within Scientology, correct? A. Evidently there was a lot of people claiming that they had inside information of the fact that these people were missing seeing as the Church - a lot of Church disseminators, or that's what they would call themselves, and critics, tend to like to sa5 that they monitor all sorts of activity by the Church as far as the Internet goes and their policies and their new material that comes out, and essentially it': a lot of insiders basically that feed the outside. But in doing that the rumor came up that the Church was starting to take his name off of, you know, a lot of the Internet websites for some reason. Q. And why did you feel that that was a potential story or something of interest? A. Why? Geez, okay. Let's say the vice president is missing, all right, and he happens to be rumored to be down two miles from you, you know, in a work camp environment. And you just happen to be doinc a story, you know, on downtown or the area and entitieE in the area. Don't you think that might be something little too juicy that you can't -- wouldn't ignore something like that? This was too good to not check out. So, you know, I mean it was so close. If it was something that was in another state or something like that, yeah, I would be like, yeah, so what, you know, but. Q. I take it that the rumor that Mr. Rathbun was missing was not a police report or a report from his family? A. Actually there has been several police reports filed evidently in the origin -- originating state. Although as far as I'm able to tell nothing wa: ever made about it. And supposedly also both of their wives filed for -- filed for divorce, I think even on the same day in California. And it's funny, but they weren't able to find their husbands to serve the paper: on them at the time. Q. Is it your understanding that any law enforcement personnel are looking for Mr. Rathbun? A. If they aren't, they certainly should be. I mean, the guy has been missing almost a year now, unless of course the Church can cough him up to dispel some of these rumors. Q. Did you -- did you -- did you report to the police that you had heard that Mr. Rathbun might be at sawmill? A. Of course not. I don't have any firsthand information of that, no. If I did, I definitely would have. THE COURT REPORTER: You're going to have to let him finish his question. BY MR. POTTER: A. Oh, I'm sorry. Was I doubling up on him? Oh, ok. Q. That's one of those rules that we talked about -- A. Yeah. Actually, you know what, if you were to put your finger up and when you're done, if yo were to go like that, it might help me a little bit visually. Q. I'll try that. We just have to be cautious, and she hopefully will remind us because she notices it before you and I do. All right. So did you -- did you do anything further in terms of trying to locate Mr. Rathbun? A. Of course. And being of interest of it I tried to put out, you know, a feeler in the community which consisted of both of their pictures and a brief description of their rundown and a brief message of the people that were -- might be looking for them, concerned members of their family possibly. And I went downtown with them and passed a couple of them out in the local restaurants. Q. So you put posters together or something, flyers? A. Yeah, uh-huh. I figured that would be a good way to find out whether, you know, any of them were around or not. Get some good leads. Q. You said that you had put out feelers in the community. What does that mean? A. That -- that's what they consisted of. Q. That's what you meant by feelers? A. Yes, those were feelers. Q. And you passed those out in restaurants? A. Actually, no. I took them to a restaurant and asked if the people would put them in their window. Q. Did they? A. Yeah, I think several did. Q. Did you speak to any of the members of Mr. Rathbun's family or Mr. McShane's family? A. Actually, I tried several times to contact them, and each time came up a dead end. Q. They refused to speak to you or you were not able to make contact? A. I was not even able to make contact with them surprisingly enough. Of course, you know, there'E only so much you can do by mail. Q. Let's go back. You mentioned that -- I had asked you to walk me through how your project had changed. The first thing you said was security. Apparently at one time your focus changed to security or that's what the original focus was? A. I never had that focus. Q. Okay. When you said that the project had changed and made reference to security, what were you talking about? A. They changed it by stepping up I guess or the constant haranguing of security. Q. The constant haranguing? A. Yeah. Like -- you might even call it harassment, you know. Q. How did they harass or harangue you? A. Every time I was downtown I was getting these strange calls to the police from Church security saying that I was like harassing people in some way, doing that type of stuff, stalking people. Q. Do you believe that you ever harassed people? A. No, absolutely not. I took great pains to be in -- not only in view of their own Church security cameras, but to be in public view at all times. Public streets. Q. And while you were in these public areas, what were you physically doing? A. Filming sometimes, sometimes reading the paper, sometimes not filming at all. Just enjoying the downtown area. Q. When you say filming, were you taking still photographs with the camera or were you taking videotape? A. First the still. I didn't have video at the time. Q. And at the time that you were taking these photographs, did any security person ever ask you why you were taking the pictures? A. Directly, security? Q. Yes. A. I think there were a couple of instances, yeah. Q. And what did you tell them? A. That I was doing a project. Q. Did you tell them basically the same thing you've told me here today? A. No. They would immediately, I don't know, for some odd reason become scared at the fact that I might be either taking pictures of them or something and would immediately cut contact once the first sentence was said so. They seemed to be scared of the lens for some reason. Q. When they came over to talk to you, would you take their picture? A. Oh, absolutely. Q. Why would you do that? A. I have to document things like that in case something were to happen, or if I was to have somebody bear false witness against me, I'd at least have a face to put to a name to and maybe tell the story of what happened, you know, during the situation Q. All right. You mentioned that your project has changed over time from security, from police complaints and to missing people. Any other changes or revisions to the project? A. Well, here we go again. Well, it was just more of that type of weird stuff. I mean I was just trying to get a hand on where the whole thing was flowing as far as the result of putting the posters out got me four death threats for God's sake on a phone number that I provided. So -- I mean that's a telling part of the story. That takes you in an area that you don't originally intend on. Q. Tell me about the four death threats. A. Well, I perceived them as being death threats because they were along the lines of, you know, you're going to get hurt downtown, things of that nature. Q. Well, tell me -- people have called and left messages on your phone or what? A. No. Actually it was on a cell phone that number that I had provided. Q. Tell me what happened. A. In one instance a person told me that he was from my cell phone provider, and they needed to re-update my information and needed me to go ahead and give it to them. Well, I told the gentleman that, well, you should already have it so why don't you read it to me and I'll tell you if there's any changes on it. And he must have been a high-level member because there he goes, you know, somebody snapped and it was -- he started cussing me out, and said, you know, you're going to be six feet under if you continue this stuff. We know who you are. Then it was a hang-up. Unfortunately, you know, the cell phone I was so financially strapped at the time, you know, of course can't do things like trace phone calls and things like that. The cell phone I had couldn't even record. That was one of them. The other one was, of course, you know, if you continue this downtown, you'll I think they said be hurt. Q. This is another phone call? A. Yes. Another one was vans hit people downtown every day, I think was the specific message. You should be careful crossing the street. Q. What was the fourth one? A. I don't remember the specific words, but the gist of it was you don't live very long in this town doing things like you're doing, something like that. Q. And do you know who any of these phone calls were from? A. Absolutely none of them. Q. All right. We're going back to the project. We've talked about security, police reports, missing people, death threats. What else has your project encompassed? A. What has it encompassed? All sorts of stuff. Mostly visual, though. I mean, it's so broad it's hard to -- it's hard to explain what you mean -- I mean what you want the information for. Can you be a little more specific or -- ' Q. Well, I'm simply trying to find out what ! i your project is and I'm having a hard time -- I A. Same here. Just imagine if I knew. ' Q. It's your project, though. , A. It would be up on the screen. The story is yet -- still to be finished, you know. This is part of it so. Basically, you know, the whole gist of the thing now -- of course it's morphed so much it's become this, you know, that since I didn't have a story it's , more or less I'm a static entity holding a camera, youl know, and whatever happens happens. You know, if certain people feel offended by that or by the -- in II' I the instance of Exhibit A, Cult Watch, which evidently is a big stickler in this town for some odd reason, ' then that's their prerogative. But, you know, at the same time I can't go out there with a predetermined story, you know what I mean. It would be too unfair tc an individual whom, you know, might become part of the story line. So I have to let others do their talking and their walking for me so. Q. Now, some of these pictures that you have taken you've posted on the Internet, correct? A. For the project? Q. Sir, I have no idea if it's part of your project or not. I'm just asking you if some of the pictures you've taken apparently you've posted on the Internet, is that correct? A. Yeah, but what do you mean by pictures? I mean any pictures? Q. Have you posted pictures that you have taken on the Internet? A. Sure, yeah. 'i i Q. Can you tell me why? A. Why? I can answer that with a why not. For the same reason somebody takes a picture I guess, so people can see it. Q. Is posting pictures on the Internet part of your project? A. Not necessarily. It could be part of it I guess. Q. Have you -- have you photographed pictures of Church staff or Church parishioners? A. Yeah. Q. Have you posted them on the Internet? A. Probably. Q. Again why? A. Probably to describe the scenario or some sort of scene that might involve my project. Q. Do you feel that that's of interest to somebody? A. Oh, obviously. Q. Who is of interest to? A. The general public I would assume. Q. Why do you assume the general public is interested in Church members, pictures of Church members? A. Because they're a newsworthy item at the moment. Q. Why are they a newsworthy items? A. It depends whether you read the newspaper or not, and there's untold millions of different ways that they could be newsworthy. Q. Can you give me one? A. One? The assault on me downtown. That was by a Church member. That's a newsworthy article. Q. So have you posted a picture of that individual? A. Oh, definitely. Q. Have you posted pictures of individuals that were not involved in that assault? A. Yes. Q. Why were those people's pictures published or posted? A. Well, some of them they might have been witnesses to it. Q. What about people who were not witnesses to the assault, have you posted any of their pictures on the Internet? A. Yeah. I think I already answered that question. Q. And, again, that's because you feel that those people are newsworthy for some reason? A. Yeah. This whole town and the relation to Scientology and the inner workings in Scientology and who follows it and what their exposure or not exposure to the general public or freedom of information or freedom of the First Amendment, all that relates to why I posted the pictures. Guess that's wh~ I didn't play basketball. Q. Huh? A. Missed the garbage can with my piece of gum. Q. Oh, well, it's gum. A. I was like that's why I never played basketball. I wasn't good at basketball. I had a pack of gum around here somewhere. Did somebody steal it? You're not sitting on my gum, are you? Q. No. I can assure you I'm not sitting on your gum. A. This is too weird. (At this time Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) BY MR. POTTER: Q. Let me hand you a picture that I've marked as Exhibit Number 1, sir. Is that a picture that you posted on the Internet? A. Yeah, it sure is. MR. LIROT: May I see that? MR. POTTER: Yeah. I've got a copy here for you, Luke. Go ahead. I have an extra one here, but I just haven't pulled it out here for you. BY MR. POTTER: Q. Is that -- why is that picture newsworthy, sir? A. Well, because I went to the Clearwater City Commission prior to that picture being taken, as well as some video, and inquired as to whether or not
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