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as he could financially about paying things out. What is true: If you're not receiving much money and you're putting a great deal of -- see, we had a goal to clear the planet, and everybody was being very dedicated about it.But another problem he had too, then, of course, was health. Now, remember that psychiatry and medicine was one of our major enemies and opponents. And, of course, since Scientology Dianetics could cure and alleviate anything and everything and had the answer to all of man's problems, one did not go to doctors. Of course, one didn't have enough money to anyway, but one did not go to doctors. And people's health suffered a great deal. And there's quite a number of people that I know personally that suffered a great deal because of that.

MR. LECHER: All right. one other question before I turn it over to my colleagues.

Do you think that people who are in Clearwater who parade up and down the street -- do you think they are dangerous to themselves or to the people of Clearwater?

MR. DeWOLFE: Are they dangerous to themselves?

MR. LECHER: Or to the people of Clearwater?

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MR. DeWOLFE: Both.

MR. LECHER: Would you like to explain that?

MR. DeWOLFE: It's not really easy to explain. But -first of- all, they really don't know what they're doing.. The average -- the average people coming in the door to Scientology, until they get to the very, very top, they don't realize that they buy step by step. They start believing all of the various falsehoods, like, for instance, L. Ron Hubbard's past, et cetera. And they can do -- they just don't know what they're doing. And -

MR. LECHER: Well, do you feel.-- if your father
should die of natural causes, would it what effect
would that have on the faithful?

MR. DeWOLFE: I think they would I really have no way of predicting, but I think that there's a couple
of quotes that my father used to say all the time that
really scares me to death. He at one time was also
talking about really taking on the world. And I remember
in 1958 an example which scared me to death and started
myself thinking -- he wanted me to devise a plan to
try to steal an H-bomb.

MR. LECHER: Your father wanted you to steal an H- bomb?

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MR. DeWOLFE: Huh?

MR. LECHER: Your father wanted you to steal an H- bomb?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yeah. He wanted me to

MR. LECHER: From whom?

MR. D EWOLFE: Anybody and everybody. We got -- I never got into it, because.I said, "Oh, no, thank you." And sort of -- things went click in my head, and I said, "I don't -- I have two children and I don't want to get involved in that." And that was in late 1958.

MR. LECHER: He wanted you to steal the parts or the whole bomb?

MR. DeWOLFE: No. He wanted a whole package. The but the -- as an example, one of the things he said to me.-was that he said it many, many times he said, "Don't call it murder, call it suicide." And there's another quote, "I connotate loyalty as the highest ethic." That means, "Follow me." That means, "Total dedication, total loyalty to me, L. Ron Hubbard."And that's the one-thing that he put before any
and all everything. And -

MR. LECHER: Because of

MR. DeWOLFE: So, anyway, that would lead me to

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believe that this -- knowing as much as I know about it, that -

MR. LECHER: I will not pursue that anymore at this point.One other question: Is it -- do you think that the organization wants to control our economic system?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes.

MR. LECHER: Thank you.I would like to ask Mr. Hatchett if he would like to ask any

MR. FLYNN: Mayor, may the witness make one more statement about a particular area before we get into questions?

MR. LECHER: Certainly.

MR. DeWOLFE: Okay, sorry. I left Scientology November 23rd, 1959. 1 tried to do one or another thing up till about 1962, and that didn't work too well. So, then, I got a job.During the -- almost immediately upon my leaving, on January 3rd, 1960, my father sent me a telegram threatening to have me arrested for the stealing of a mailing list. There were other threatening telegrams and activities in which he was applying to me the standard tech of attack and destroy, but he was applying

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it to me. I helped him do it, and I thought this was kind of incredible. But he turned around and tried to destroy me.He said -- then, this happened in 1960 and kept up with a whole variety of things, which are really unimportant, but -- at this juncture and to the question.
So, I got very angry and upset because I had the children, and I didn't -- the only thing I knew how to do in the world was auditing, and I couldn't really -I had a hard time getting a job because I didn't know how to do anything, except, you know, how to be a ridiculous rock star jumping around, pushing students around.

Anyway, I left originally, by the way, very which is very important to this thing -- is because of my children.-- --I didn't want my children involved. I had had a pretty well messed up, turned around childhood. And,the weekend around November 23rd, my wife - twentyyears at the moment - she just flatly -- she's the type of person that's very calm, cool, and collected; she gets angry about once a year -- about once every five years.

She flatly just came out and said, "Okay, you've got a choice between me and the children or Scientology.

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Make up your mind." This was on a Friday. And I said, "Okay. It's you and the children." Zip, off we went. And -so, that was one of the basic reasons I left, plus the fact that I was getting very tired of being -of all of the scam and the con and the fraud. And also -- even though I was L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., I wasn't being paid much more than the people struggling for seven and ten and $25.00 a week. I just didn't have any money. Okay. That's one of the basic reasons -and which I now have six children, five of them up and grown and all of that.

In 1962, 1 got very angry and upset. All I wanted to do with Scientology was to forget it, which was an impossible situation. I've tried to do it for twentythree years. So, I decided, "Well, the heck with it." It's one of- those things that's, I believe, humanly impossible to either cover your past or to turn a blind eye. to it or forget it.

I -- so, in 1962, 1 contacted law enforcement and
said, "Do you want to hear a few things?" And starting
off from there, I got involved in an E-Meter case that
the FDA brought against Scientology and, also, an IRS
case, and helping other lawyers, authors over the years.
And so, it's just a matter of disseminating information.
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Okay.. 'Well, I got involved in the IRS case, and I don't quite at this instant have the exact dates at my fingertips. And they were really pretty upset that I had appeared in public and. started spilling the beans, even though-. it was highly limited about strictly financial affairs.

And so, about 1972, they got, they embroiled me into a sales organization in Beverly Hills that I, in
the beginning, didn't realize was a Scientology front
organization that Bob Thomas had set up with an Alan Walters to suck me in and try to nail my hide to the
barn door. At that -- this was,, I believe, in the early
part of 172. 1 would have to check around on dates to
give you the exact date.

But I walked there -- I walked in one night to - thinking it was a sales' meeting, and it was Bob Thomas Bob Thomas,by the way, at the time was the Guardian U.S.. - I mean, he was the head of all of the Guardian offices in the United States. That's what I understood at the time.

And the -- he starts telling me how I was such a terrible, awful person, et cetera. I'm using very nice language which wasn't the exact phrasing. I do feel constrained about that, about the fact that he wanted

2-48 -

me to take back the testimony that I gave in the case. He wanted me to recant all of the various things that I had said about Scientology, which, up to that time, had been very honest, truthful, and factual, and given under oath, as it is today, which, by the way, since I left Scientology is something that I consider to be quite valuable and I cherish a great deal. I'm talking about the laws and the constitution, and I take my oath as something very ser ious.

MR. LeCHER: You were the Founder's son and you were there since the beginning and you had -

MR. DeWOLFE: I would like to finish this.

MR. LeCHER: I'm sorry, sir.

MR. DeWOLFE: But I just had to slow up a little bit because I do get just slightly emotional about this.

MR. LeCHER: Sorry to

MR. DeWOLFE: That's all right. It's very important.
So, anyway, Bob Thomas to make a long story
short or we'll be here until to make a long story
short, showed me photographs of my children going to
and from school. And he -- we got calls in the night.
My wife was scared to death with calls; strange people
would be looking through the window of our little house.
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I believe at the time that I was working for Sales Training, Incorporated, which was a thing about selling sales courses in Los Angeles. And I didn't have -- I didn't have any money, and I lived in a very small house. I think the house was -- probably, if you put it all together, you could fit, maybe, two of them in your chamber here.

And so, they wanted me to recant. I had refused. And then, he brought in about how my father still loved me and how I should -- I shouldn't do such terrible things to dear, sweet, wonderful Dad. And then, he --what happened was -- because they wanted me to recant. And so, because I was under duress at the time because I was scared stiff -there's a lot of things that happened in Scientology that I haven't brought up at the hearing simply because they are not really apropos to here.

And. I hadn't been out of Scientology really that
long, and it I didn't'know what the legal ramifica
tions were and I didn't want other things to get out
about I mean, I didn't -- I was scared of police, not
in the way they -- I was scared that somewhere along
the line, and throughout - the other things I did in the
fifties might be coming out and they might try to black

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mail, which they did. And so, I signed a thing recanting the testimony. if you carefully examine that, I don't think it has a great deal of legal validity. But that occurred in 1971, '72.
This also had -- was in relationship to a Paulette Cooper'had written a book -- had written a
-book, The Scandal of Scientology, and getting involved in the writing of an article called "A Look Into Scientology" or "One-Tenth of Scientology." Also, there's a Robert Kaufman who wrote a book called inside Scientology, and he was going through a lot of hell trying to get it out. And evidently, Paulette Cooper was all involved and getting sued in a real donnybrook with Scientology. And I-had, I had read the book. In fact, I found the book on the newsstand. I didn't even know the
book existed until I saw it on the newsstand. I picked
it up and read it and, then, I called Paulette Cooper
and things led to another in my involvement in giving
her information. A Maurice Gerulius of Nuclear Press
wanted an introduction to the book, Inside Scientology,
by Robert Kaufman. And, of course, Scientology didn't want me to

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write the introduction. And, of course, they were trying to destroy Paulette Cooper and they were trying to destroy Maurice Gerulius, the publisher of the Nuclear Press, and they-were trying to destroy.-Robert Kaufman... And then, they were also trying to destroy me.
And then, in order to protect my wife and my children and quite literally to protect them - I mean, the other people involved - I signed the recant.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Before this meeting started, we said that we might like to take a break for five or ten minutes. Would you like to take one now or -

MR. DeWOLFE: That would be nice.

MR. LeCHER: It would be nice to take a break? All right.
Before--w-e start with our questions, we'd like to take a short five- or ten-minute break and then come right,back.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

(Whereupon, the hearing resumed.)

MR. LeCHER: Please take your seats, Commissioners, staff, and consultants, and witnesses.

Commissioners, I know that we have a very interesting witness and we'd like to question him at length, but
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if we could keep it brief. We have many others to go and time may be running out. And we also must quit early tonight because we have a Commission meeting at five. So, we will be here for virtually all day and all night.

As far as tonight, I would like, if possible, to quit at ten so that we can get home and be here at nine tomorrow morning again.

So, I would ask if you would be brief and "-o the po.int -- nor do I want to stifle any questions you may want to ask, too.

we're going to lead off with Mr. Hatchett now, so everybody has a chance to lead off first. We're going to alternate as the various witnesses come before us.

So, now, I'd like to introduce to you Paul Hatchett the vice Mayor, who will lead off.

RONALD DeWOLFE, Resumed.

MR. HATCHETT: Mr. DeWolfe, is it true you lost power in the Church before you left?

MR. DeWOLFE: I lost power in the Church?

MR. HATCHETT: Lost power in the Church of Scientology before you decided to leave? Was your power base

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waning?

MR. DeWOLFE: No.

MR. HATCHETT: You still had

MR. DeWOLFE: I was Executive Secretary of when
I left.

MR. HATCHETT: I read in the notes about an entry of your son's trust fund in

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, my father believed that everything that my grandfather and grandmother owned belonged to him. My grandfather had set up a trust fund unbeknownst to me until he died and his Will was probated - and, evidently, my father wanted it. It was an educational trust fund so that my son, Leif, my oldest son, could go to college. And it amounted to about ten, $12,000.00.

Later oh, evidently, through my sister, they sent a poison pen letter to the insurance company, saying I had- misappropriated the funds and I had misspent the money and fouled up in various ways. And -- so, that took a little bit of juggling around to sort things out.

But in the very beginning with the attorneys, it was a legal matter. So, I had a very good attorney that handled all of the estate problems, what have you, and lean on the matter. And, of course, there was
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the original trustees of the People's Bank in Burlington and, of course, the insurance company and the probate court, the probate court in Seattle, Washington. So, the whole thing.. I was -- it was kept very legal and very proper and, in general, I handled very little of, the money and the arrangements.

But anyway, it was just a matter to try to gain control of the money or keep my son, Leif, from being able to use it for his education, which he did use it for.

MR. HATCHETT: Well, the crux of my prior question -is it still in force? Does your son still have benefit of the trust fund?

MR. DeWOLFE: No, no, no. It was only ten or $12,000.00, and he had to work and we had to work to get him through college. He graduated in -- college in less than four years with about a 3.95 grade average.

MR. HATCHETT: All right, thank you. I'm going to ask you a few rapid fire questions.

MR. DeWOLFE: Sure.

MR. HATCHETT: Your father wrote from the top of his head you kept emphasizing.

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, correct.

MR. HATCHETT: A lot of fictional writing.

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MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. HATCHETT: Apparently, you did the same.

MR. DeWOLFE: No, not throughout the period there.
I had written part of a book, as far as my own writing
is concerned. I wrote all. of the techniques and pro
cesses in a book which was published in England called
Creative Learning. That was a series of processes used
for -- on children in school.The fictional thing would be, for instance, like, The History of Man, coming up and creating the incidents, as I mentioned the clam, that type-of thing. But I have written very little of anything after Scientology.

MR. HATCHETT: All right, thank you. That satisfies me.
You mentioned, also, that -- I imagine, your father deserted you, and you mentioned that he sent very little money back for food and clothing.

MR. DeWOLFE: I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear that.

MR. HATCHETT: Your father sent very little money

MR. DeWOLFE: That's

MR. HATCHETT: -- for food and clothing.

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. HATCHETT: Did he desert the family; is that what you really said?

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MR. DeWOLFE: He sent very little money or used very little money. At one time he had a boat -- excuse me. He sold a story and I believe it was about twentyfive hundred dollars. He went down to the post office to get the check - and he was gone all day and we couldn't figure out where he went - and he bought a yacht. And we didn't have much food. As I said, my father's support came from my mother and also came from my grandparents to a very great extent. And it was pretty much of a hard scramble for money throughout the thirties and the forties.

MR. HATCHETT: Did you ever have a desire to be number one in the Church of Scientology order or hierarchy?

MR. DeWOLFE: Sure; sure.

MR. HATCHETT: Sure?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yeah.

MR. HATCHETT: The reason I ask you all these questions: It would appear to me there's a father and son rift, you know, a real falling-out. And may this not be just a vendetta against Dad?

MR. DeWOLFE:, No, no.

MR. HATCHETT: Why should I believe you?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, first, there've been, like,

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twenty-three years under the bridge. The -- you must . realize one thing about me is I'm the same person now as I was then, except it's like I lived two different lives. Then, I loved what I did, and I, also, now love what I do, which is -- I have -- I have my wife and I have my children. That's what's become the most important thing to me.

And it was a to put it in oversimplification,
it was a scientific excuse me, a science fiction --
a science fiction world, and I've come to appreciate
reality and truth a great deal. In those days, we
treated the constitution and the laws around like they
were toilet paper. And I've learned to appreciate those
a lot more recently.

And another thing, too, is that the truth and facts about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard are slowly and surely being brought out by other people, also. In my own personal opinion, I am even a superfluous being right here, right now because you have enough witnesses, you have enough affidavits, you have enough documentation - so does the federal government, so does the state government - to certainly see that the facts and truth of Scientology, Dianetics, and the life of L. Ron Hubbard come out.

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And it is -- and this is going to sound like kind of a mealy-mouthed, hollow statement, but it's really quite true because I do have the facts and truth in being able to stand up and tell what I know.

But as an example on the life of L. Ron Hubbard, it's easily documented, not through what I say but what other people say, by bits and pieces. of his past, the papers, the documentation. So, vendetta? No.

I've also learned another thing -- I'm sorry.
I've also learned another thing, which is that was
all very emotional about it in the early days after I
left and began to hate and what have you. But I've
learned that hate only does one thing-, which is consume
the person doing the hating. And so, I've absolutely
refused to hate him. And people can't understand this
man who has done all this stuff, how can his son not hate
him? I refuse to hate, because if I hate him, then, this
gives my children the right to hate me or my -- or other
people the right to hate me kind of thing.

So, those are all these heavy, negative emotions and feelings I've been able to cut out.

MR. HATCHETT: My last question -- thank you. Do you know for a fact whether your father is still living?

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MR. DeWOLFE: No. I have a -- I mean, I haven't seen his dead body in a coffin.But over the years, we have written back and forth. He has -- he kept a secret address down in Los Angeles that non- Scientology types and family would write. I have it, if you wish it; I don't think I have it with me, but it's a post office box number. But over the years, all of a sudden, about -- I would say somewhere between 1979 -- 1.975 to 1979 and even more recently, some of the letters I've received -there's a complete change in syntax. He has a very special way of stringing words together, which, after reading umpteen million of themever since I've been a kid, I can recognize. And just bits and pieces and that sort of thing leads me to believ that he just possibly might be, but I don't know.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you very much.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker, do you have any questions?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. DeWolfe, apparently, from what you've indicated, many of the procedures which are currently used were actually created in the time that you were still with your father, and in here did it classify as Dianetics or else for the Church of Scientology?

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MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, that's correct.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you -- were you -

MR. DeWOLFE: There's been little or no change in the actual basis.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you briefly explain what the purpose of auditing is, for example, how you came up with -not necessarily you, but your father or whoever came up with the idea of auditing?

MR. DeWOLFE: The -- as I said, auditing was a -is a term used in accounting to -- you have to go back to the basic theory of Dianetics as it was set up: any and all man's ills are mentally caused, based. And it's based in what is called an engram, that are -- that is, moments of pain in unconsciousness. So, auditing would be the erradication of moments of pain in unconsciousness and discomfort and et cetera in one's past and subconsciousness. I'm talking about Dianetically at the moment.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes.

MR. DeWOLFE: Dianetics.

So, that is the basic modus operandi of it, the basics bf what auditing is.

Auditing, physically, is basically - in the old day of Dianetics - laying down on the auditing couch, somewhat

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