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there. So, we finally decided the best thing to do was to go back -- for me to go back and leave her there and, perhaps, they would take care of her then.
-And then, the other thing, too, is the daughter was so brainwashed by that time, I couldn't reason with her anymore. I mean, I saw what a hopeless mess it was, and I tried to reason with her a number of times, but she just wouldn't accept anything I had to say at all. She was totally brainwashed into --she was in heaven. So, it was hard to do, to leave.
MR. LaCHER: Let'-s take about a five-minute break. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) (Whereupon, the hearing resumed.)
MR. LeCHER: Staff, Commissioners, consultants, ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. Officers, when the people are in, close the door.
Mrs. Garvey -- okay.
'MRS. GARVEY: Right here.
MR. LeCHER: Vision, are we on?
All right.
We are back from a short recess. And if you're just joining us, we're talking to Mr. Ernest Hartwell who was promised to come to Mecca, to Clearwater, sold his possessions and tried to find his daughter, and
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somehow ended up in a desert. And so far, he's gone three thousand miles away from here.
ERNEST HARTWELL, Resumed.
MR. LeCHER: And I'd like you to continue where you left off, Sir.
MR. HARTWELL: Okay.
First thing I want to say is I'm sorry..
MRS. GARVEY: No, that's fine.
MR. HATCHETT: No.
MR. BERFIELD: No apologize.
MR. HARTWELL: That was one of the bad things about the Church: breaking up families. It seems like they do everything they can to destroy families and happiness. For me, like I said, it was the hardest thing I ever had to do in- my life, leaving them there in the condition that they were in and leaving them with a man that was totally insane.
Now, I hadn't said it before, but I want to say that. A number of people, when I came back, asked me what I thought of L. Ron Hubbard, and I told them, "The man is crazy; he's absolutely insane." Now, that's my own personal belief, my observations.
He was a screaming maniac, the three or four times
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that I saw him. One of the times I saw him, he came in and issued conflicting orders. He'd tell you to do one thing and turn around two minutes later and tell you not to do it. And he expected you to do those orders.
Anyway, I got out and then, after I got back to
Las Vegas, it was a matter of about a month and-a-half before I went back to work. And when I got back to work -shortly after I got back to work, the chaplain from there, Fred Burke, came to Las Vegas and approached me with a story that he had heard I was responsible for disclosing the location where L. Ron Hubbard was. Of course, I told him he was wrong, and I said, "Chase it down." "Fine, I'll chase it down."
Then, he produced our marriage license and told me that he obtained the marriage license from my wife and that shewanted a divorce. And this was something that just left me speechless because I couldn't believe it.- I felt we had a real strong thing going for each other; we did have. We were real close to each other. We never had any real trouble until this thing came up in our married lives. So, I just couldn't believe it.
But anyway, he left. And after he left, the more I thought about it, the more confused than anything else I became on it. And so, I -- oh, the other thing is that
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he wanted to know if-they could use my address, and would I accept passports for Fre-Dawn and Dell. And I wondered what for, and he said, "Well, they're moving out of the United States, going to a foreign country, so they'll have to have passports. And they have to have a local address to send the passport to." And so, I told him, "Yes." You know, I was just so shocked, I couldn't figure out what they wanted.
Then, of course, after that, they had me worked on me, and it became more upsetting. But I did manage to get Dell back home a month or so after that.
Now, just shortly after she came back home, they approached Dell and said that she would have to pay a: -five thousand, five hundred dollar freeloader debt that was incurred for the time that she was in there for expenses and for services that she had received, or she would have to go back on staff as a member of the Church of Scientology locally. So, when I heard that I just -I almost went.right through the ceiling.
So, I went down to the office, the GO's office, and told them, "Hey, there's some big, fat mistake. We were cleared of it and notice was put on the bulletin board that we were being released free and clear of any debts. And now, you're coming back and telling me we owe
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five thousand dollars. This is a big mistake." So,
they called me back a couple of days later and said,
"Well, Hartwell,. we want to inform you that now you owe
five thousand, five hundred-dollars, as well as your
wife. So, you have a ten thousand, five hundred dollar
debt to Scientology." Jesus.
.Of course, I went, you know, as far as I could go with it, locally: back to her daughter, back to them. We had been writing letters back and forth, and I kept getting stalled and stalled and stalled. And so, I finally went down there to get some help, and I told them -- hell, but i got the letter then that I was free and clear, we didn't owe any debts.
I went back to Las Vegas, and her daughter, the next morning, came to our house and wanted us to go down to Scientology and sign another document. She wanted us to sign another document. I said, "Why do I want to sign another document? I want to be clear of them and they want to be clear of me.
Well, they're, of course, a highly paranoid operation. That's what they are. They're just scared to death that somebody is going to let it be known where Ron is or some of the secrets of the Church.
So, we spent three hours with her daughter, there
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abouts, arguing about: "Hey, I've been through this goddamn thing for days. I don't want to ever hear anything more about it. Get out of here and leave me alone. I ain't going to -- I ain't signing no papers." And this discussion went on about that they just had a couple of questions they wanted ask us. I said, "Ask me." She said, "They want to do that down at the Church." "No way." So, I finally got them out of there.
Then -- I got them out with the agreement that we would go down in a couple of days and find out what it was all about and see what they wanted. So, we went down in a couple more days and, now, they've got another -- they want me to sign another letter, stating I owe them thirty thousand dollars if I say anything tore about the, Church of Scientology, and I had welshed on my agreement with them by threatening and this sort of thing here. I had threatened them, of course. But I had done it. And I was just trying to get them off my back.
So, now, this goes on. They tell me what they want. I said, "Hey, I ain't signing an agreement like that. You don't have to worry about me." Now, I outlined the agreement. "Of all the things that we were
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supposed to do, I held up my part of the bargain on everything. I said nothing about anything. But you people have doublecrossed me, lied to me, and double dealt me time after time after time. Now, I want a letter from the Church of Scientology that says you're going to leave me alone. And you get off my back. I'm not on yours; you get off my back." I told them how to write the letter.
Well, of course, two days later they called me back and told me, "Yeah, we have an agreement here just like you wanted. Come down and sign it." So, I went down and it was the same thing. So, we had another half a dozen meetings and, finally, the organization said there was nothing more they could do about it. I said, "Well, fine."
Now, harrassment went on for months after that. They sent a fellow out from the main organization in Los Angeles, and he started a big harrassment campaign . And it ended up by them finally telling me that they had definite proof that I was trying to extort money from the Church of Scientology and, they were going to put me in jail if I didn't sign the new agreement.
This aqreement here - and we had some arguing on this one, too - but they were trying to-get me to state -
-) - 4-1 0
sign statements to the fact that I had been an alcoholic
all my life, that I had totally neglected my own children,
and that I had been abusive to my children: I
was a poor father and poor provider. And I had just
a number of inflammatory statements like this. of
course, the last statement was that I did now owe the
Church of Scientology sixty thousand dollars, and I was
supposed to sign this thing. I said, "Hey, no way."
So -- and not in such nice terms like that, you know.
Anyway, that same night, they had sent Dell's
daughter to our house where we were living. And she
went there she'!! tell you her version of the story
to threaten her with our lives. So, after that -- up
until that point, I didn't realize what demons we were
dealing with. I didn't realize that they were lying
and trying to do everything that they could to destroy
US.
Actually, they had cost us our job's, cost both of us our jobs.
They had us moved out of the place we were living in. I don't --
Dell will probably tell you about other things that happened to
us. But that was the last -- when they threatened to put us
in jail, I went to the police department then and, in fact, I did
fear for my life. I got scared, and I did get scared,
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because it's a known fact that there are a lot of suicides connected with Scientology. I didn't want to be one of them. So, I went to the police department and told them what happened. And the next day, I took Dell down and she made a report on the same thing.
And then, I went to the newspapers. I told them everything about where L. Ron Hubbard was, what the Church was like, what they were doing. I went to television stations; I went to radio stations; I got on the air, and I knew if it got public, they'd quit. I figured that's the only way off having my freedom. And sure enough, it worked. They didn't bother me from the day after. The first time to come on, they didn't bother me a bit. So, I guess that's the last story of the things that happened.
MR. LeGHER: Did they sue you?
MR. HARTWELL: Well, yes. And after that they brought a lawsuit against me.
MR. CALDERBANK: What was the
MR. HARTWELL: Well, I forget what the
MR. LeCHER: Well, let's not get into that. They left you alone as far as dirty tricks, but they did bring a lawsuit against you?
MR. HARTWELL: Yes, right.
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MR. LeCHER: Okay.
MR. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, here's several things that happened now. They, too, went public, and they made public statements to the fact that I was an alcoholic, I had a drinking problem, that I had murdered my father. They took -let's see, there were several other thing s they brought out'; I don't know.
Oh, there's another thing is that they ran a story in the newspapers that I was guilty of extortion, that they had definite proof in the Church of Scientology that Ernie Hartwell was trying to extort money from them. They ran that in the newspapers and on television, the same story.. So, these things, of course, happened, too.
MR. LeCHER: Tell me-about your daughter tried
to kill you,--did you say, or threatened your life?
MR. HARTWELL: I beg your pardon?
MR. LeCHER: You say your daughter tried to kill you or threatened your life?
MR. HARTWELL: No, she didn't. I think, probably, it would be better if my wife would tell that story because I might
MR. LeCHER: Why don't we have your wife come up now and tell her -- what she'd like to say. Then, we
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could question both of you when it's appropriate.
Mrs. Hartwell, will you please be sworn in, please, by Miss Goudeau?
ADELL HARTWELL, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:
MR. LeCHER: I must ask you the same five standard questions that I asked your husband and I've been asking everyone that appeared before us as witnesses.
Number one: Are you appearing -today and testifying under oath voluntarily?
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes, I am.
MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater?
MRS. HARTWELL: No.
MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes, we do.
MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?
MRS. HARTWELJ,: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone
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suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?
MRS. HARTWELL: No.
MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
Now, if you would tell you r story in your own words, please.
MRS. HARTWELL: I think Ernie has covered quite a
bit of it, except that I would like to say that when I
found out I was going into the desert, my heart just
sunk because it wasn't where I wanted to go, either.
Also, I'd like to say that when we did get united with
Fre-Dawn down there, I realized how brainwashed that she was cold.
MR. LeCHER: Fre-Dawn is your daughter?
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes.
She wasn't the same girl that left us. I can't quite explain
it, but it was just a cold feeling.
I was appalled, like Ernie said, with the swearing, the cussing.
In fact, I was crying one day and said I'd have to go home to learn
to cuss and swear before I'd ever survive down there.
And then, another thing that was real shocking, I was in the
shed one day, the wardrobe, working, and I heard -- I hadn't
met Hubbard at this time.
Arid I heard this terrible screaming filthy language like I had never
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heard before. I had something in my hand and it fell to the floor and my mouth flew open. I said, "Who in the world is that?" And they said it was the Boss, because we weren't allowed -to use the word "Hubbard" for security reasons. And I said, "You man, the leader of the Church speaks like that?" And they said, "Yes. He doesn't believe in keeping anything back." So, that was another -- quite a shock.
The main thing that I disliked, too, was, when we first got there, we were -- before we could see the place, we had to be programmed on the lies that we had to tell. If we run into one of our friends, we had to tell a lie to them and tell them that we were just there for a vacation. We had the man's name and everything to give. We had to go twenty-five miles to use the telephone, and always, usually, there was somebody with us; we couldn't use the phone. There was no papers; we never read. the paper.
We were schooled on how to get away from process
servers, FBI agents, any government official or any
policeman who wanted anything to do with Hubbard. We
had to if we had to, there was four different ways
that they trained us to handle them, even if we used -
had to use mental force -- physical force. And that went
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on for days, that training. one of us would be the FBI agent and the other one would be who we are, you know, until we had it down pat.
We also had to lie if we ran into Scientologists. We were here in Clearwater on a mission and we were returning. There was no way that we could have friends or relatives come and see us. We were just like we had been cut off from the world. We were behind closed locked doorswith curtains*always pulled.
If the utility man or anybody came on the property,
we were alerted. We were to stay in as much as possible,
not run around, watch our language or their language;
I was all right. And they were to we were to hide
anything pertaining to the word "Scientology" in books
or anything that would disclose that it was the Churchof Scientoloqy.
We also had to -- anytime we left from one building to another, everything that we carried had to be in sacks. There was nothing that could be visible that had "Scientology" on it. And that was always a worry. And when we were outside, we were not to use the language that Scientology used. And so you were under constant strain. And I was even afraid to go on lib because I was afraid that I would disclose his hideout by saying something.
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And Fred Roth was put in the RPF because he said the word,"Scientology" on the golf course. So, this is how rough it was.
We also -- oh, there was something I wanted to say about -- the way they got my marriage license was we had to make a story up about where we were -- that we were going overseas because Ron's hideout had been exposed to the government. And they made me believe it was Ernie that disclosed it.
And so, he needed our marriage license, and I didn't even question it. And he also needed my -- our birth certificates, Fre-Dawn's and mine. It wasn't just us; it was everybody in the Los Angeles area that was down there that had to get passports. So, their loved ones all thought they were going overseas, and so that way they couldn't contact them here -- where we were.
,-We were given a lawyer's name and address that we had to memorize. We couldn't leave the base until we had it memorized perfectly in case there was an accident or we were ill or in"a hospital, and we were to use this lawyer's name and he would come and take care of everything.
When they went to the doctors or the dentists, we
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would always use- I used my real name. I think they used your real name, but they always went by someplace and picked up a fake address and said that we were friends staying with someone. There was always people going to and from the doctors.
L. Ron Hubbard believed that anybody that was ill was a double threat to him: number one, he couldn't -they couldn't produce, so they were no good to him; number two, he was terrified of a germ of any kind, and so they were locked up in, I'd say, about a ten by twelve room. And at one time there was thirteen boys and girls in this room, running high fevers and all of them smoking. I mean, you could hardly see within there, it was so terrible. And you were treated -- they were treated like an enemy in this room, and because they were.
Hubbard, I saw him throw fits. I actually saw him take his hat off one day and stomp on it and cry like a baby. I have seen him just take his arm like this and throw it wild and hit girls in the face. And one girl would follow him with a chair. If he sat down, that chaiir had to be right where he was going to sit one girl missed by a few inches; he about fell off of it, and she was put in the RPF.
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And the other girl would carry an ashtray, catching his cigarette ash. They had to pop the cigarettes in his mouth when he wanted it. He had one man that would just wash his clothes. and tended them, changed his clothes for him. He had a nurse. He had one woman who did nothing but clean the house. And he had one man that did nothing but cook his three meals a day. it took him from about six in the morning till about ten at night to get those three meals prepared.
I was with Hubbard every day for about a month. I should say, every night. We would start -- our daily job would start about twelve o'clock, and we would go at noon, and we would go until the sun came up the next morning, and a lot -most of the time without anything to eat after six o'clock at night. And so, we were working almost around the clock, except for the evening meal.
They said that they couldn't -- no way could they give me any auditing because of my illness, because Ernie was upset and had me upset and that, as soon as Ernie left, why, then, they would start and give me real auditing and get me to the doctor.
By the way, when they came to sign us up, I explained to them my trouble and I told them that I needed
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a good doctor and I did think that, maybe, auditing. would help, and which they promised me both. And -- so this is one of the -- they showed me a picture of-the hotel and said that "Do you think-that Hubbard would live in anything any worse than this?" So, naturally, that's where we expected to come.
Okay. The RPF down there didn't function like it did over here because they had no place for the RPF.
Another thing, when we went out days, we were schooled that we had to -- it was a bad place for rattlesnakes, scorpions, and, of course, black widow spiders. We had to wear boots and carry flashlights at night.
The RPF had their clothes in boxes, and their mattresses were thrown out on the ground with the spiders and the scorpions. They had to run everywhere; you couldn't talk-to them. I was written-up several times for talking to Fre- Dawn.
I also saw her one day -- every time I would go
by on my way to work, I would see her dragging her
mattress from one shade tree to the other. I said,
"Why are you doing this?" And she was ill and she
couldn't be in with the others, and so she was hunting
shade and keeping out of the it's 117 degrees, and
she was hunting shade because she was ill..
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I was worked one day -- ironed out in the heat -out in, I mean, in the shade. And it was 102 degrees then and without any food the whole day. And by fivethirty I just got deathly ill, and I told them I had to leave. And I staggered quite a ways -- it's about three blocks from where we were shooting to where we -- up to where we -- where the dorm was. And I was staggering. I -fell first in the -- then, in the ditch; it was like I was drunk. But anyway, I made it to the bunk and just crashed.
They came in and woke me up and said at seven o'clock I had to go down because Hubbard was going to be on the set. And I wouldn't do it. And I was written up because I took a three-hour nap.
So, this -- and another time I complained I had to go home because I wasn't being treated. I was thin and bleeding and in quite severe pain, and they took me right in and put me on the Meter, said I could go home -- or go right to the doctor. And the next night they had us scrubbing the barn. We started at six o'clock and we scrubbed that barn until four o'clock in the morning, and they had me carry the buckets of water.
And this -- nobody -- anybody that run a fever was immediately put out of commission. But anybody that was
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ill and. not running a fever, they were made fun of and ridiculed because they thought more of their body than they did of Hubbard's work.
There was no unity; there was no working together. It was, like, if you were going over here and somebody was coming this way, you couldn't stop and say, "Hello," because, then, that would stop you and slow you down so you might not get your work done.
And one day we were laughing and joking on the job, and the supervisor told us if she ever caught us doing .that again we'd go in the RPF. It was strictly work, no pleasure.
If you were in the lower conditions, all money stopped coming in, what little of it there was. You didn't get any pay and you didn't get any lib; you were just held prisoner.
While I was there -- when we first got there, about two days after we left home, which was about a five-hour trip, my nephew drowned. And we didn't get word -- it took ten days for them to notify us that my nephew had died. And this was by a letter from my sister that went to Clearwater and then back to where we were, because they wouldn't give us a telephone call. All our mail was read before it got to that base. I wrote three
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letters to Ernie before I got through, and I finally said everything was going great because everything else came back and I had to rewrite it. All the mail, like I said, had to come here and then go to Clearwater.
Nearly every time I went to the phone after Ernie' left, I had to be -- there was a guard with us. I could never be alone after that.
Oh, by the way, too, when my nephew did die and I got word of it, I demanded that I go into Palm Springs and make a phone call to my sister. And it took us from seven o'clock in the morning till-about six-thirty that night. And they finally give us this broken-down truck. We had to buy the gas. They gave us two hours. if we weren't back in two hours, they were going to call the police and have us arrested for stealing the truck.
I saw a_man -- I don't know how many were at the base while I was there, but it was quite a few. I saw a grown-man, such as my husband -- he cried for days, maybe two to three days. And they were under constant guard before they were allowed to leave. They drove people so close to suicide before they were allowed to leave that base. The women was just constantly crying, and it was -- it just tore me up.
I also, the last month I was there, was following
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Hubbard's orders, and I read this one that - I don't know how many times I had to read it before it could really sink in - was that Elaine Wright was going to commit suicide.. And Hubbard -- this is what the order said, "I don't care if Elaine Wright is going to commit suicide or not, but get her off of my land before she does." Where was the help? You know, where was the religious counseling?
The only time that the word "God" was used was in vain, and I mean, it was used constantly. There was no civil talking to each other. It was all cussing and swearing.
I know one night I had to cry, and crying would take me into Ethics. So, I laid out on the diving board where I could see all around me and I had me a cry.
Another thing that was shocking, too, was that Ernie wrote me a most wonderful letter, and I was so thrilled because he was taking -- he was on the horse and he was doing so great, and I thought, "Well, gee, I'll show them." So, I showed it to one of the girls, and she said, "You can go right down into Ethics." And she said, "And you get this straightened out right now." They don't want you to be happy. They don't want you to be united; it's just individualism.
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I saw my daughter very little because she, first, was in the RPF. Then, they got -- they put her in isolation again. She got ill; her fever went up one degree and down one degree, and she was in there for about two and-a-half months in this one room, not allowed to see anybody. You can imagine what that has done to her brain.
Then, when we did come home, we thought everything was going smooth and everything, then, the harrassment started. The night that -- it was twelve-thirty at night when Mary Louise came to my home and she kept trying to get me out of the house. I was -- a mother is the only one who would know the feeling I had. I opened the door and I was really scared of my daughter. And yet, I can't tell you why, except her face, her eyes, and her attitude. I refused to leave the house. And I can't really remember anything that went on all the time that Ernie was with Alan Hubbard. And she wanted to know if we were afraid for bur lives, and I told her, "Yes." And then, the police told us we should report that.
Arid then, the next day we were told that we had to move out. And then, the next day they came on my job. I worked at MGM, where it was strictly guarded,
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with millions.of dollars of money in costumes, and I turned around and my daughter was there. And she come -I told her not to come in again, she was jeopardizing my job. She came back two different times and brought Alan Hubbard with her, once. The last time she told me that she said, "I want you to know that nobody has been murdered over any of these things yet. But it's going to get, a lot worse before it gets any better." And I started to cry and I said, "Yes, I know it is." Then*, she put her arms around me and said she loved me.
Sorry.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hartwell, how -- I think we've heard enough as far as your narrative. I'm just going to ask you a few questions, then, I'll turn it over to Mr. Calderbank.
I -- it..just seems incredible that a couple like
you sells everything and tries to be a wants to be
a dancer and maybe make movies, and you're given this carrot which is a brochure of sparkling Clearwater, and you end up in a desert, and you can't leave, and your marriage is about to fall apart. You're separated, you're divided, you found her. And your daughters want nothing to do with you. And you're destroyed financially and mentally. That's just difficult for me to believe and, I'm
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sure, everyone in this room. And I, frankly, don't know where to start to ask questions. I think you've said it all.
So, for the time being, I will just yield and maybe Mr. Calderbank has something to ask you.
MR. FLYNN: I think Mrs. Hartwell has one more thing.
MRS. HARTWELL: There was another time that was really terrifying, and this was when Ernie had all his meetings with them to get me out of there. But this was why Alan said I had to be there, because I had
MR. LeCHER: Who's Alan?
MRS. HARTWELL: Alan Hubbard was the man sent from California to handle us.
MR. LeCHER: Any relation?
MRS. HARTWELL: No.
Anyway, he so, he went down the hotel room --
a motel room to meet with him. He was all alone. And there was both my daughters and their husbands, and they had flown my daughter and her husband in from India just to use against us. And they were -- came in the night before and they hadn't even called us. They hid my other daughter's car so we wouldn't know that she was there.
And we started talking. And all of a sudden,
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another one that was with Alan Hubbard -- I don't know
him, I don't know why he was I got so terrified.
But he, all of a sudden, jumped up and started to yell
at Ernie, saying what a beast he was, what a terrible
man I had because he was trying to extort money from the
Church, he was no good, that I knew what was right and
what was wrong. I had to get rid of him; I needed to
divorce Ernie and get back into the Church because I knew
what was right.
And.finally, Ernie got me out of the room. I
Just I think it seems to me like it went on for
hours; I don't know how long it did, but to me it seemed
forever.
But Ernie tried to get me to drive home, but I couldn't because I felt like,
if I had left the room that day, I'd.never see my daughters again, and it was close to being true.
MR. LeCHER: Where are your daughters now?
MRS. HARTWELL: One is in Las Vegas; we never talk to her. And the other one's in LA.
MR. LeCHER: And they're still in the Church of .Scientology?
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes.
MR. LeCHER: Why couldn't you leave? You didn't
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have a car, were you that far out in the desert, or were you broken spiritually or
MRS. HARTWELL: I was still hanging onto I had to get to a doctor. And when Ernie comes home, no job to go to, he didn't have the money to get me to a doctor. And I had been told that if I didn't get attention soon it would be cancer. And so, I was still hanging onto them getting me to a doctor, which they did in September. They finally got me to a doctor.
MR. LeCHER: Did Mr. Hubbard cure your ca ncer?
MRS. HARTWELL: Oh, yes. I wasn't -- no, he couldn't cure anything. He was terrified of getting sick.j
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderbank.
MR. CALDERBANK: It's hard to ask questions after that.
Dell, would you like to take a break?
MRS. HARTWELL: I'm fine.
MR. LeCHER: One thing: What year, for the record, did this take place?
MRS. HARTWELL: '78 and nine, was it?
MR. LeCHER: Well, when did you leave for Clearwater and end up in the desert? What year was that? How long were you in the desert?
MRS. HARTWELL: It was -- I think it was -
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MR. HARTWELL: In '79.
MRS. HARTWELL: -- May of 179 we went. Ernie came back in July; I came back in October.
MR. LeCHER: Did you ever make it to Clearwater until today?
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes. I -- a year and-a-half ago I was here for the Tenney trial.
MR. LeCHER: I have no questions, Commissioners. I don't know if you want to question them anymore. I think we've heard everything. I don'.t think we should question them, but if there's something you want to ask for the record, go ahead.
Mr. Calderbank, first.
MR. CALDERBANK: tust very clearly: The main
reason you got -- Clearwater was held out to you, and
the whole staxt of your entire journey was that you were
coming to Clearwater
MRS. HARTWELL: Oh, yes.
MR. CALDERBANK: -- this beautiful city?
MRS. HARTWELL: I should clear up one thing.
We were to come to Clearwater and go a short
distance from Clearwater because Hubbard wasn't in
the Fort Harrison Hotel, but he was close by.
MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever hear the term
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"Dunedin" used?
MRS. HARTWELL: The what?
MR. CALDERBANK: Dunedin.
MR. LeCHER: It's a city a town north of us.
MRS. HARTWELL: No.
MR. CALDERBANK: It's interesting - this is a
little off the subject and you don't know about this -
but everybody in Clearwater, virtually, was sent a
booklet from the Church of Scientology. 'I think it was
"The Way to Happiness." It had various numbers, and
they said "The Way to Happiness, quote, unquote, was not
to lie, not to do illegal acts, and one of the major
tenets was to keep the family together. And -
MRS. GARVEY: it's written by -
MR. CALDERBANK: Written by and copyrighted by Mr. L. Ron Hubbard.
I know you've answered it, but how would you characterize that? What would you say to people of Clearwater that would receive a book like that? How would you sum up and tell them your experiences versus what they're holding out?
MkS. HARTWELL: I'm not sure I understand what -
MR. LeCHER: What advice do you have to give to the citizens of Clearwater?
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MRS. HARTWELL: I -
MR. HARTWELL: I would certainly advise anybody that not to believe anything L. Ron Hubbard says. To me, he's nothing but a flat out liar. of course, he's a big fabricator of all kinds, but he does quite a job, too, of blowing things up way beyond proportion of what they are.
It's my belief that he has used psychoanalysis, something discovered by another man that Hubbard got hold of, and he has simply called it auditing. It's nothing but psychoanalysis, but he has called it auditing.i Now, I say this because I had some psychoanalysis treatment myself some thirty years.ago. And what little bit of auditing I got into, psychoanalysis is the same thing. And -- the principles of it are identically the same thing. In fact, Ron Hubbard himself gives credit to Freud for a lot of this philosophy.
MRS. HARTWELL: I would like to say this: I -
my heart bleeds for every youth that's in here, because
I know the brainwashing they've had, I know the damage
they've had. We've gone through it. And once they
step out that door and face reality, they need help.
And that's what I feel.
MR. CA-LDERBANK: Dell, did they actually tell you
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that auditing would cure your sickness and the side effect
MRS. HARTWELL: Between the auditing and- a good doctor, which there was supposed to have been one of the top doctors in the United States at base is what they told me.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any questions?
MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple: I'm going to ask Mr. -- Ernie - because I know better than to ask a woman - what is your age?
MR. HARTWELL: My age?
MR. BERFIELD: Yes.
MR. HARTWELL: Sixty-two.
MR. BERFIELD: The reason for that is we've seen a lot of young people come in here, and I was just curious. I will not ask your wife that.
.'I will ask her one question, though. If I could paraphrase, in answer to Mr. Calderbank's question here this treatment that they offered you, would you say that that's fraud in your own mind, not
MR HARTWELL: The treatment they offered Dell?
MR. BERFIELD: Yes.
MR. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, definitely.
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I am aware and I agree that certain mental problems can be cured by the process that they use, psychoanalysis, or through psychiatric treatment. We all know that. And they probably do enjoy a certain amount of success with the problems that people have, mentally.
But when it comes down to physical problems, I think it's an entirely different story. To give you an example, I have varicose veins very badly in my leg. Of course, I'm more concerned about as far as my dancing career is concerned. But they told me they could cure .them. Without going to a doctor, they told me they could cure them. Now, that, of course, I found later is -- nobody's ever heard of anybody curing them -varicose veins through mental treatment.
MR. BERFIELD: One other question: I've noticed among the people that have testified here, in the back room, that there seems to be a tremendous camaraderie among those of you that have left Scientology.
And I've asked the question of previous ones, you know, of whom you could turn to and, apparently, there is no one that you can go to outside the Church; is that correct?
MR. HARTWELL: In regards to what?
MR. BERFIELD: In regards to searching for help.
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MR. HARTWELL: Oh, sure.
MRS. GARVEY: While you're in the Church.
MR. HARTWELL: Sure. If you have mental problems or physical problems, in our society there are many that you could turn to for help.
MR. BERFIELD: No. I mean, the Church itself: fear of the Church, leaving the Church, fear of leaving the Church.
MR. HARTWELL: State your question again.
MR. BERFIELD: Well, I think I'll go on.
And I guess this is more to your wife, but prior to leaving the Church, what retaliation wouid be taken against the two of you if you left the Church?
MR. HARTWELL: Well, that's the thing that they do, of course. They resort -- instill a great amount of fear in you. This happened to us from the day one when we got there until we got out of there. In fact, the fear of it never really left us.
There are quite a few full blown psychos in the
organization of Scientology, at least I think so. And
I think each day you live in fear of some one of these
persons taking it on himself to say, "Hey, we must destroy this
enemy or that enemy." I mean, they are constantly
hammering this type of thing to them anyway.
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Their enemies must be destroyed.
So, the average person doesn't do those things. But we live in fear of it, I do. And, of --curse, I've heard of it. And if you couldn't quite walk out of your building -- any man who couldn't walk out of a building would be scared to death. There's nothing but 'Lear.
Of course, the first time that you -- or the second or third time that you hear of people, say, committing suicide from being in Scientology, the confusion that you're in and the mess that you're in and you know what 'you're faced with, hey, you are scared.
I mean, I was scared to leave there myself, really scared, because I didn't know what would happen to me. I was scared, too of leaving them there, because I didn't know what would happen to them. They put that fear in me r-i-ght from the very beginning. I mean, they hammer it in and they maintain it. So, you're scared all-the time that you're there; you're scared to blow your nose.
one of the biggest things, of course, is the RPF. You're scared of speaking out of turn or you'll go in the RPF. You're scared of everything.
One thing that scared me, when I was in the desert, they kept stalling me day after day before they sent me
home. In the meatime, about half a dozen guys had left there, what they call blow. They were supposed to have blown. Well, I finally said to myself one day, "Hey, did they blow or are they buried up there on the hill somewhere?" I mean, I'm not saying that any of this happened, but these people just disappeared. And I'm beginning to say to myself, "Why are they going to send me home?" I'm beginning to think they're looking for the right opportunity to bury me on the hi-11. 1 mean, they instill that fear in you. Believe me, this is fear.
And when they come down making these death threats on us, maybe I'm a chicken of some sort, but I ain't -I'll face anything. I'll face the worse thing that they have. But I was afraid they would bury me, I really was from what they put in us.
MR. BERFIELD: One -- just one last question here: There seems to be a thread that runs through here of divide and conquer the family or the family unit.
And I've asked this question, and Mr. Calderbank has asked it in another way: If you could give a message to all the people of Clearwater, what would you say to them today?
MR. HARTWELL: Stay out of Scientology. Don't have nothing to do with Scientology, believe me.
MRS'. HARTWELL: The ones that are already in.
MR. HARTWELL: Oh. Are you talking about people that are in?
MR. BERFIELD: Those that are in and those that are outside, the people of Clearwater.
MR. HARTWELL: Well, the people that are in, there's -really not much that you can say to them because they're totally brainwashed and sucked into it. The people that are out, hey, stay out.
MR. BERFIELD: My last question: Our purpose in this hearing, as a legislative hearing and not as a court, is looking out for the health, safety, and welfare of the people of Clearwater, and that's what we're trying to establish here.
What can we communicate and do for those people of Clearwater?
MR. HARTWELL: Well, I think the people are reading, especially now and have before, enough accounts in the local paper and that of what Scientology is, what they do, and how they operate. The residents of Clearwater, Florida should be able to know what Scientology is by now and be able to keep out of it.
MRS. HARTWELL: I have something. I'd like to say something here.
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The way I look at it is: I feel that what someone
in Scientology needs is somebody like the Flynns that
has given us support, because trying to find a lawyer
and going to a lawyer with the story that we had -- they
thought we were crazy. And we just about didn't go
public because they thought we were crazy.
Now, what needs to be said is they need a deprogramming program and they can be deprogrammed, which, would take away the fear of the ones coming out. And they also need to be -- it's like a concentration camp. They need to be set up before they can be rehabilitated.
MR. LeCHER: That's a comment that we shouldn't really get into an area about, deprogramming. We have we're concerned about the external activities and business activities, and that's something I'm advised that we should not pay too much attention to, although it's certainly very important and
"MR. HATCHETT: Well said.
MR. LeCHER: well said.
Mrs. Garvey, do you have any questions?
MRS. GARVEY: Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Hartwell,
for coming here. It's been very difficult for you.
And coming from having children of my own and coming
from a large family, I share a little bit, I think, of
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what you're going through.
Just to go back on a couple of things that you said:
Mr. Hartwell, you talked about the good reports that you got about Clearwater.
Were these from Scientology staff people or were they from recruiters or where --
who in particular did you get this kind of good reports on Scientology,
the Florida organization, and Clearwater?
MR. HARTWELL: I'll say mostly from her daughter.
And then, we got one other person -- oh, yes, several
other people, in fact, in Las Vegas that were here. They
had one person in particular in the family -- two
people
MRS. GARVEY: Vacationing?
MR. HARTWELL: No. They were in Scientology.
MRS.. GARVEY: Scientology.
MR. HARTWELL: They were aboard the ship, Apollo, and
they landed here and got to know what some of it was like.
And everybody spoke well of it. And I can understand why
now that I see it myself. I could give up Las Vegas very easily.
MRS. GARVEY: When -- did you want
MRS. HARTWELL: The messengers, when they come out, the others -- where -
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MR. FLYNN: There are messengers from the Commodore's Messenger Org., called CMO. They are like the elite of Scientology. We'll get into them at a later point in time.
MRS. GARVEY: Okay.
They were sent out, then, after you expressed an interest; is that --
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes.
MRS. GARVEY: Were you taught or told about audit-
ing as part of Scientolog went and had gone
Y, iz you through audit-ing process?
MR. HARTWELL: Yes.
MRS. GARVEY: And were you told that this is a scientific method of doing whatever
MRS. HARTWELL: Yes.
MRS. GARVEY: -- curing whatever your handle was MR. HARTWELL: Very definitely
.MRS. GARVEY: or your problem was?
MR. HARTWELL: yes.
MRS. GARVEY: Were you ever told it would be kept confidential?
MR. HARTWELL: Yes.
MRS. GARVEY: Okay.
MR. HARTWELL: As a matter of fact, they took
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information out of my confidential file and used it against me.
MRS. GARVEY: Obviously, then, you would not have done the auditing if you had known that it was not going to be kept confidential?
MR. HARTWELL: Of course not, no.
And even part of that stuff information was
Published in the newspapers.
MRS. GARVEY: Some of your auditing information was
MR. HARTWELL: Right.
MRS. GARVEY: -- in the papers? Okay.
Mrs. Hartwell, you have made comment about "written up." What does "written up" mean?
MRS. HARTWELL: Everybody spies on everybody. I was even afraid to speak to my daughter because she would write me up.
You do
MRS. GARVEY: Is it like a reporting back
MRS. HARTWELL: Right.
And they do this to keep everybody in line. They say it's for your -- their own good, because if the person does it -knows they're caught, they won't do it again. So, you're really supposed to be doing it for
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their own good. But it is just spying on each other.
MRS. GARVEY: Just one you made comment about
pay. Were you paid there at all while you we're
MRS. HARTWELL: We were like whoever it was that testified today. We
were promised seventeen-fifty a week but when we got down there --
and we had to study the different courses, like, the sec check I
was telling you about. We were only paid -- because we were on
study, our pay was cut to seven-fifty a week.
And then, like I said, too, the RPFers and if you were on the lower
conditions, where it seemed like I was most of the time, there's no pay.
MRS. GARVEY: No pay
MRS. HARTWELL: No pay but more work.
MRS. GARVEY: You just casually mentioned sec checks, security checks. What -- did you both go through security checks?
MRS. HARTWELL: Very vividly, when we got down there. And that was, I think, the
main purpose -- now, I can see the main purpose is to find out if there's anything in --
about your background that they can use.
MRS. GARVEY: Is that -- is that a check or a question and
answer thing of about a hundred, a hundred and fifty questions?
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their own good. But it is just spying on each other.
MRS. GARVEY: Just one you made comment about
pay. Were you paid there at all while you we're -
MRS. HARTWELL: We were like whoever it was that testified today. We-were promised seventeen-fifty a week but when we got down there -- and we had to study the different courses, like, the sec check I was telling you about. We were only paid -- because we were on study, our pay was cut to seven-fifty a week.
And then, like I said, too, the RPFers and if you were on the lower conditions, where it seemed like I was most of the time, there's no pay.
MRS. GARVEY: No pay
MRS. HARTWELL: No pay but more work.
MRS. GARVEY: You just casually mentioned sec checks, security checks. What -- did you both go through security checks?
MRS. HARTWELL: Very vividly, when we got down there. And that was, I think, the main purpose -- now, I can see the main purpose is to find out if there's anything in -- about your background that they can use.
MRS. GARVEY: Is that -- is that a check or a question and answer thing of about a hundred, a hundred and fifty questions?
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Apparently, from what we have heard and what we understand, being close to L. Ron Hubbard, from a Scientologist's point of view, would be almost like going to heaven. That would be the greatest thing that could happen.
MRS. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, very much so.
MR. SHOEMAKER: And the fact that they came and recruited you, when you were not directly related to Scientology, and brought you in immediately to where he was located -- did you ever understand why they selected you to do this?
MRS. HARTWELL: No.
We kept asking ourselves, "Why; Why us," you know.
And then, I kept telling Ernie -- I says, "Well, every
body on the planet, or, you know, in Scientology, would
give their right arm to be here." I says, "Why don't we
feel that way? What is there? What's here?"
And that's the way it was.
MR. HARTWELL: I think I could add just -- go ahead.
MR. SHOEMAKER: No, sir, please go ahead.
MR. HARTWELL: I think I could add something-more to that.
They realized - or we heard indirectly - they had
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made a mistake in bringing us there. That was one of the reasons why the recruiters that were sent down from wherever it was that came down to take us in made a gross mistake by taking us in because we were not indoctrinated into the religion. So
MR. SHOEMAKER: And that's why they were put in the RPF?
MR. HARTWELL: That's one of the reasons, I quess, along with everything else. They stayed in -- their punishment, in other words, lasted as 'Long as I was there and, I think, it lasted as long as she was there or even longer.
MRS. GARVEY: But they were there when -
MR. HARTWELL: Yeah. They had they put them
in there for taking us there because we were not in the religion.
MR. LeCHER: All right.
One quickie: What kind of movies was L. Ron making? You made movies with him in the desert. Were they epics, or
MRS. HARTWELL: Well, it was -- one was on the
E-Meter. And this was quite interesting, too, because
everybody they had what they called the pinch test.
MR. LeCHER: Pinch?
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MRS. HARTWELL: Yes.
You pinch and the Meter's supposed to read and then, you're-supposed to say, "Feel that pinch," and the Meter's supposed to read again. And you know, everybody on that base was pinched one to ten times before we finally got to pass the first reading.
MRS. GARVEY: No feelings left.
MR. HARTWELL: I think one of the things that made me realize what a hopeless, helpless operation it was is that I went into the editing room - that was going to be my first job - and when I first got in there, i was shown amongst other things, a file cabinet of film that they had. Now, they had a two-door cabinet that was probably about that wide and, I guess, seven feet tall. And it was almost full with film, you know, the thirty-five millimeter regular movie-size film. All the trays were marked "No good."
Now, this is what made me realize the insanity of L. Ron Hubbard and what he was trying to do. He was the one that was directing the movies; he was the one that was writing the scripts for them; and he was the one that was producing them. Yet, there was --
MR. LeCHER: Was he acting in them, too?
MR. HARTWELL: No.
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MRS. HARTWELL: Yes.
MR. HARTWELL: At least, not that I know of.
MR. LeCHER: He was the star, too?
MRS. HARTWELL: He was the star.
MR. HARTWELL: But that's what made me realize it. The whole place was nothing but in a high state of confusion. Each department, instead of working with each other, fought each other, and everything was a terrible confused mess. But, hey, there's the man that was running it.
MRS. HARTWELL: One thing I'd like to add is we
-were doing a scene where they were bombing the FBI office and -- I mean, I was in makeup, and we had so much blood on those actors, which was made out of Karo Syrup and food coloring. And we couldn't get enough on them to suit-Hubbard. We had guys' legs off, there were hands off, arms -- I mean, it was a mess from the word go.
We had so much blood on those actors that they had to take their clothes and all and soak in the shower before they could undress. This is what Hubbard-wanted.
MRS. GARVEY: This doesn't necessarily relate to the Clearwater operation, but I think it relates to the base that we're talking about.
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MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, one other question, if i might ask: Was there any question in your mind that the things you described - not specific detail, but the things you described - is there any question in your mind that Mr. Hubbard did not know what was going on?
MRS. HARTWELL: Well, a lot of things was kept from
Hubbard, like, the mail was supposed to everybody
writes to Hubbard and he answers everybody. He doesn't see a letter.
But anything, such as our case, that was going on
on the base was right from Hubbard. There's no doubt.
There the telexes came. I thought--- the telex room
was really heavily guarded. But I.did see telexes from
England, California, and Clearwater.
MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, ma'am.
The conditions which the people were living in there
and the RPF and all of that, that he certainly knew
about-that?
MRS. HARTWELL: He knew it and thoroughly enjoyed it.
MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
I would just like to say one final comment: We thank you very much for
being good witnesses and for being -- you've got a very sad story to tell, and I don't
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know how you got it out, but you did it very well. And we appreciate your coming.
MR. FLYNN: As a point of information, the movie that Mrs. Hartwell referred to, whatever it's worth, is a movie that was made during the period that the criminal cases in Washington, D.C. were taking place. And those movies were shown around the United States.
And they, basically, showed that psychiatrists, the FBI, and the XMA were c3~iminal organizations, as shown in the movie. And some of the blood scenes that .were described were seen to have supposedly been perpetrated by the FBI and the AMA. And those movies are shown around the United States to certain Scientologymembers.
I would now like to introduce a document and also, for the-record, as Mr. Hartwell testified, after all of this occur red, a lawsuit was brought against him by the Church. And I will leave the reasons for the bringing of the lawsuit to your -- whatever inferences you may draw after you hear the rest of the testimony.
And I would point out the Fair Game Doctrine that
was on the easel - and we'll put back up that said
earlier that the Fair Game Doctrine says, 'Lie, Cheat, Sue, or Destroy."
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And we're now going to introduce an exhibit involving the alleged cancellation of the Fair Game Doctrine, as held out by the Church.
Can we have the lights turned off, please?
Thank you.
You'll note that the HCO policy letter of 21 October 1968, from the Hubbard Communications Office, says, "Cancellation of Fair Game." The Fair Game Doctrine over on the easel is dated 18 October 1967. The portion under "Enemy" that I referred to a minute ago says that an Enemy may be tricked, sued, lied to, or destroyed, as well as deprived of his property, et cetetera
This document says' "Cancellation of Fair Game.
The practice of declaring people Fair Game will cease.
Fair Game may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes
bad public relations. This PL" policy letter - "does
not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of
an SP.."
MRS. GARVEY: Nicely written.
MR. CALDERBANK: But, Mr. Flynn, doesn't it say SP Order over there,
and then it says you can lie, sue trick, cheat?
MR. FLYNN: That's correct; that's the policy.
MR. CALDERBANK: So -
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MR. FLYNN: And this
MR. CALDERBANK: -- this policy letter did not cancel anything?
MR. FLYNN: Did not -- that's precisely correct.
As a matter of fact, see, what was occurring at that time was, when they issued Ethics Orders, they put on the Ethics Order that the person is subject to Fair Game. Well, for a period of time, because they were having problems in England and Australia and-other countries, they took that off Ethics Orders, but they continued to implement the policy.
And as you've seen from the exhibit we've already introduced into evidence, which is Exhibit No. 4, on 8 June 1979 in this country, they subjected to a person with a Fair Game Declaration, as you have seen. And you just heard the Hartwells' testimony.
(A copy of HCO policy letter, dated October 21, 1968, "Cancellation of Fair Game," was marked as Exhibit No. 40, as of this date.)
MR. FLYNN: The next witness -- that's the prior Exhibit No. 4 and, if you move it up, you will read that that person is subjected to the Fair Game Doctrine down at the bottom of the last paragraph. And if you move it back down, you'll see the date on it: 8 June 1979.