329 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 3 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince. 17 DATE: July 8, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 330 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard 4 Suite 201 Tampa, Florida 33602 5 Attorney for Plaintiff. 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 7 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N. East Street 8 Suite B Tampa, Florida 33602-4108 9 Attorney for Plaintiff 10 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 11 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street 12 Suite 900 Clearwater, Florida 33755 13 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 14 15 MR. LEE FUGATE MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 16 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd 17 Suite 1200 Tampa, Florida 33602-5147 18 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 19 20 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 21 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, New York 10003-9518 22 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 331 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 3 MR. ANTHONY S. BATTAGLIA Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A. 4 980 Tyrone Boulevard St. Petersburg, Florida 33710 5 Counsel for Robert Minton. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 332 1 THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you all may be seated. 2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just was advised by my 3 office that Judge Baird wants us to be at a hearing 4 tomorrow by telephone. And I'm going to be here and 5 my brother is covering another hearing for me in 6 Tampa. But Judge Baird wants to go forward with the 7 hearing by telephone. So I would ask that you let 8 me attend that hearing by phone. 9 THE COURT: What time? 10 MR. DANDAR: Nine o'clock. 11 THE COURT: Okay. How long is the hearing 12 expected -- 13 MR. DANDAR: I have no idea. 14 THE COURT: Well, that is no good. What kind 15 of motion is it? 16 MR. DANDAR: It was the Flag's -- or RTC's -- 17 actually, Mr. Rosen and Mr. Pope's motion to strike 18 our pleading challenging the domestication of the 19 Texas judgment against the estate. 20 THE COURT: So it's legal -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Right. We had a hearing on that 22 Tuesday at about 5 o'clock before July 4 and we 23 filed a supplemental memorandum of law and they 24 filed a response over the holiday, so I guess we'll 25 discuss that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 333 1 THE COURT: You think an hour? 2 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. I don't think so. 3 But -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm told not that long. About 5 thirty minutes. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's plan on starting 7 at ten o'clock anyway. 8 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 9 THE COURT: All right, go ahead, Mr. Dandar. 10 Mr. Prince indicated he didn't give us his full 11 explanation, so you can go ahead with that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay, before he does that, could I 13 give him a document that I had the clerk just mark? 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Well, Mr. Prince, go ahead, give us the full 16 explanation of why you have the opinion that Lisa McPherson 17 was dead because of an end cycle order? 18 A Okay. Lisa McPherson went to the hospital. 19 From -- from the records that I can see from the doctor, 20 they didn't indicate that she was psychotic and needed to be 21 Baker Acted. 22 Now, we're talking about terms here that mean 23 different things to different people. In the hospital they 24 define psychosis the way they define it and, thus, Baker Act 25 people. In Scientology, they have a different definition Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 334 1 for a person, a psychotic or suffering from psychosis. 2 One of the definitions, reasoning of what 3 psychosis is in Scientology, is in their Case Supervisor 4 Series 22, which has been entered in on the record, I'm 5 sure, many times. And this is concerning psychosis. 6 Now, it says here -- 7 THE COURT: I don't know if it has been or not. 8 I think you're looking in that one book? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 10 THE COURT: I'm not sure if that whole book was 11 introduced. 12 THE WITNESS: No. No. Not the whole book. 13 But this issue here, psychosis, has been an exhibit. 14 We can put it in again. 15 THE COURT: I don't know if it has or not. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think it has. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, when I finish 18 explaining it, I'll hand it over. 19 MR. DANDAR: We'll mark it. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 A It says -- down here at the beginning of this 22 issue here on psychosis, it says, "All characteristics 23 classified as those of a suppressive person are, in fact, 24 those of an insane person." 25 So, in other words, it is the belief of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 335 1 Scientology that a person who they consider to be 2 suppressive and has those characteristics are also insane 3 people, you see. So we're working with two different 4 definitions here. 5 Now, if this person -- if Lisa was taken to the 6 hospital and they said okay, she's not insane, she's just 7 having problems, she can work it out, she gets to 8 Scientology, she's insane. They are the ones that classify 9 her as being insane. 10 Why do they classify her as -- well, one of the 11 reasons they classify her as being insane is because she 12 wants to leave. And again that is mentioned here in this 13 book here of people wanting to leave as also being 14 psychotic. 15 So my thing is this. Lisa McPherson was taken to 16 the Ft. Harrison. Prior to being -- to this whole incident 17 with going to the hospital and everything, she made her 18 intentions to the Church known, to her friends, to her 19 family, she wants to leave. In their minds, she's 20 psychotic. Medically, not necessarily so, she simply 21 doesn't want to do it anymore. 22 It has become a matter of PR concern because she 23 had the accident with the boat, you know. She's left, 24 she's -- 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, she had the what? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 336 1 THE WITNESS: The accident with the boat, where 2 she ran into the back of the boat and took off her 3 clothes. 4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 5 A Okay? This is something a person now who again, 6 two months earlier, just testified to being more than human, 7 more than a homo sapiens, this person is a homo novis. This 8 person is almost like a demigod. 9 Now, this person is brought to the Ft. Harrison. 10 In my mind, my opinion, she came in there, she said, "I want 11 to leave." She didn't change her mind. She's delegated to 12 be psychotic. They want to put her on introspection 13 rundown. She's incarcerated. 14 In that book "What Is Scientology," it gives a 15 definition of introspection rundown and gives a brief 16 summary of introspection rundown that the public people can 17 read. 18 MR. DANDAR: Let me hand this to the witness, 19 Judge. It is Exhibit 125, just marked by the clerk 20 from "What Is Scientology," which I believe you have 21 the entire book. 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 A It says "Introspection Rundown. This is a service 24 that helps to preclear, locate and correct things which 25 cause him to have his attention inwardly fixated. He then Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 337 1 becomes capable of looking outward so he can see his 2 environment, handle and control it." 3 Nothing in here, one, if Scientology labels you 4 psychotic, you are going to be incarcerated until a case 5 supervisor tells you you can leave. There is nothing in 6 here that warns anyone of that. 7 So Lisa was taken to the Ft. Harrison, deemed to 8 be psychotic, put on the introspection rundown. 9 Well, when did that come up that we even found out 10 that Lisa was on introspection rundown? After Alain 11 Kartuzinski and other people were given use immunity when 12 they were first saying she's a hotel guest, now the 13 investigators want to hear the story, "Oh, she was on 14 introspection rundown." Okay. So she's on introspection 15 rundown the second day. 16 And to me -- again, she told them, "I want to 17 leave." They wouldn't let her leave. She gets violent. 18 The next day they order the drugs to put her down. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q What drugs? 21 A I think it is chloral hydrate or Valium. Alain 22 Kartuzinski gave some money for Valium. And if you look and 23 see what Scientology says about drugs, psychiatric drugs, 24 all of these things, these things are expressly prohibited. 25 Now, so far what we've seen, we see Scientology's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 338 1 policy if a person is sick, when you take them to the 2 hospital, make sure -- but now we see things happening 3 that -- that are outside of that. By their own policy we 4 see things they are not following that. That is a huge 5 no-no. 6 We are at the place where policy and tech is 7 applied 100 percent correctly standardly in every case, but 8 somehow in this instance we have so many instances where 9 this person -- they are not doing it, they are not doing it. 10 And the reason why, you have to look behind that. 11 And the reason, my contention is, is that she expressly 12 wanted to leave, it escalated to her actually threatening, 13 probably threatening with legal, threatening with law 14 enforcement or whatever. This became a problem. OSA was 15 there from the very beginning, reporting about this, the 16 very beginning, because this is a legal threat, this is a 17 problem in Scientology. 18 So maybe they did try an introspection rundown on 19 her. You know, they say they did. Maybe they did. But I 20 think she never agreed to it. I think that she decided she 21 was done with Scientology, no matter what they said to her, 22 she would no longer agree to it, because by her own word, it 23 was making her sicker. 24 So instead, because of what happened, when they 25 saw Lisa's deteriorating condition, in their minds Lisa is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 339 1 on the process. She's on introspection rundown. 2 Scientology has further policy, the way out is the 3 way through, get the PC through it. What turns it on or 4 turns it off. In their minds, whatever she's going through 5 is part of the process. 6 Plus, you have the added fear that if this person 7 isn't reconciled with Scientology, it's going to be a big 8 problem. 9 So instead of taking this girl to the hospital 10 where she should have belonged, where their own policy says 11 to do, and get her medical treatment, when it was obvious, 12 by the reports that I have seen that she was ill, instead of 13 doing that, no, we're going to keep doing Scientology 14 because that is what it means by Keeping Scientology Working 15 and, you know, what happens happens. Some of them don't 16 make it. Too bad. 17 But the biggest fear for Scientology was to let 18 this girl go, in the state of mind where she was refusing to 19 cooperate with them, caused them more problems than her 20 actual death. 21 Q How do you get to your conclusion that her death 22 was a result of an end cycle, let her die order from 23 Mr. Miscavige? 24 A During my tenure in -- in RTC, we would have staff 25 meetings that had a pattern to the staff meetings. And the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 340 1 patterns were this. What are the flaps? What are the 2 handling for those flaps? Those are the first things that 3 are discussed and chewed around and taken care of. 4 Q With whom? 5 A Amongst the executives and the staff in any 6 particular organization. Any particular Sea Org 7 organization, I should say. 8 Q At RTC, who were the meetings with that you had? 9 A Flaps and handling? They would entail myself, 10 Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yaeger, David Miscavige, Lymon Sperlock, 11 Norman Starkey (phonetic), in some instances the executive 12 director in the national if it had to do with stats. But 13 those were the people that ultimately had to know what was 14 going on. 15 Now, why is Flag Service Organization so 16 important? Because the Flag Service Organization, when I 17 left here in 1982, made an income of over 2 million a week. 18 So you have an organization here that makes $8 million in a 19 month. This is -- it is the highest income-producing 20 organization within Scientology. 21 It's a major concern that everything is perfect at 22 the Flag Service Organization. There is not going to be an 23 instance where no one knows what is going on. So in the 24 staff meetings you talk about flaps and handling. 25 Well, Lisa is a flap. It's reported up the lines. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 341 1 OSA is there from the very beginning because she is a legal 2 threat because it is a flap. And they are busy reporting, 3 you know, on the legal side of it and what is going on and 4 the repercussions. 5 They are also coordinating and in liaison with the 6 technical area that has the technical program that they are 7 trying to get her through, which in their minds is going to 8 cure her. 9 Everyone knows -- I believe there is also 10 testimony on the -- during the time period that Lisa was 11 going through this trouble, Mr. Miscavige was there. We 12 would often go to the Flag Service Organization, to inspect 13 it, to make sure it is running properly, to make sure this 14 technology is being applied 100 percent standard. 15 Q What are you relying on when you say Mr. Miscavige 16 was at the Ft. Harrison Hotel in this time period? 17 A I believe some -- a public person who -- I don't 18 recall the name right now -- something that I read mentioned 19 the fact that he was there. And -- he was at post. 20 Q This public Scientologist saw Mr. Miscavige? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Was that in the police files of the Clearwater 23 Police files? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 342 1 A So your largest income-making -- 2 THE COURT: Where is that? 3 MR. DANDAR: I have it. I'll introduce it, 4 Judge. In fact, I have it on my computer. I'll 5 print it out on my next break. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: It is Detective Carrasquillo of 8 the Clearwater Police Department interviewed four, I 9 believe, public Scientologists staying in the 10 cabanas who heard nothing during this time period, 11 who saw Mr. Miscavige -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, is Mr. 13 Dandar testifying? Or is he asking questions? 14 THE COURT: I just asked him a question. He's 15 responding to me. I was saying -- 16 MR. DANDAR: It is a four-page document. It's 17 on my computer. I can print it out. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 A So, you know, from the limited time that I was 20 there in the Religious Technology Center myself, I know 21 that, you know, there wasn't much about the Flag Service 22 Organization that I didn't know about and also had 23 responsibilities for to make sure that the whole thing ran 24 smoothly. And the person that I reported to was certainly 25 the -- ultimately was Mr. Miscavige. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 343 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. 3 A And I am saying here today -- and the reason I 4 came to that conclusion -- is by their own written policies 5 that they have written here, you start to see violations. 6 And the reason why is because there was a problem. There 7 was a legal threat. Lisa was not cooperating with them. 8 When I did the introspection rundown on the other 9 girl, she was cooperating. She wasn't trying to leave. She 10 was going along with it. She never mentioned that she 11 wanted to leave at any other time. There is a big 12 difference. 13 So now you have a person that wants to leave, has 14 publicly stated they want to leave to their friends, to 15 their family, to the auditor. That is a no-no. 16 Q How did you -- 17 A Again, there is reference where a person wants to 18 leave is psychotic. So now they have put this label on her. 19 She's locked in a room. She's terrified. Instead of taking 20 her to the hospital when she was sick and letting her get 21 treatment because of her state of mind and because of the 22 way she felt about Scientology, they opted to just continue 23 the process, and either it works or it doesn't. 24 Q Well, Heather Hof, who was a 17-year-old ethics 25 officer, or studying to be an ethics officer, inspection Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 344 1 reports, all her records, are missing. She testified in 2 deposition that she hand-delivered her reports to 3 Mr. Kartuzinski, saying as early as December 2, I believe, 4 Lisa McPherson wasn't eating or drinking enough to survive, 5 something had to change, Heather was frantic. The -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. He's 7 just testifying. This isn't a question. This is 8 just Mr. Dandar summarizing -- and I would say 9 missummarizing -- what he thinks the testimony has 10 been. It's not a question. It's a statement. 11 THE COURT: Well, I suspect that he's saying, 12 "Mr. Prince, if this is her testimony." That is 13 what you do with an expert sometimes. So if that is 14 what he's doing, I'll allow it, I guess, with the 15 question. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q So I'm assuming I'm accurate in my recollection of 18 what Heather Hof testified to the police, as well as her 19 deposition in this case, and the pathologist retained by the 20 estate, that Lisa was in a coma that she could be shaken out 21 of but she would go back into, five days -- the last five 22 days of her life. And in reading -- in what you know and 23 reading what you just told us you read, why is it your 24 opinion that they would just simply let her die rather than 25 take her to the hospital? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 345 1 A Because she was not settled with her relationship 2 with Scientology. And this would have caused tremendous 3 problems for them. If they would have taken her -- you 4 know, even during the period of time when she was going in 5 and out of the coma and say she goes to the hospital now, 6 she starts getting treatment, she's getting better, you 7 know, Scientologists come around, she now tells the doctors, 8 "No, I don't want to see them anymore, I have to get away 9 from this." 10 Q Mr. Prince, I guess the crux of the matter is 11 you -- you put together an affidavit that is dated August of 12 1999. Do you recall that? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q Where you talk about the role of David Miscavige 15 and Mr. Mithoff and Marty Rathbun and your prior history in 16 RTC. Do you remember that? 17 A Yes. I do. 18 Q And in that affidavit you have come to the 19 conclusion that the three of them just decided to sit around 20 and not do anything about it and end cycle Lisa McPherson? 21 A Yes. If she dies, she dies. If she gets better, 22 she gets better. 23 Q Now, did I help you write that affidavit? 24 A Not at all. This affidavit came about because -- 25 from studying all of the evidence. And I spent months Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 346 1 studying this to come to this conclusion. This conclusion I 2 came to was my personal opinion, I stated it as such, based 3 on the experience I have within that organization. 4 And the thing that -- that became alarming to me 5 to even point me in this direction is the amount of 6 information that is missing, the amount of things that -- 7 that isn't there that would clearly show like what her state 8 of mind was based on what she was saying. All of that is 9 missing. Which means cover-up. Which means something is 10 hidden. Why is something hidden? 11 In my mind, similar to what happened in 12 Wollersheim. This is information, if gotten out, could be 13 harmful or damaging to Scientology. And Scientology, the 14 survival of Scientology, is first and foremost in the mind 15 of any Scientologist, even beyond their own lives. 16 Q Did Stacy Brooks put you in the mood to write this 17 affidavit? Did she kind of persuade you to write this 18 affidavit? 19 A No. Put me in the mood? I guess I didn't 20 understand. 21 Q Okay. Did she influence you in any way whatsoever 22 to get you to write this affidavit where you conclude that 23 Mr. Miscavige and others had decided to issue the end cycle 24 order? 25 A No. Matter of fact, Stacy disagreed with my Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 347 1 opinion about that. She disagreed with it. But -- and 2 we've had discussions about this. 3 I mean, you know, I did it outside of her. Stacy 4 was nowhere around when I did my affidavit. And she asked 5 me why I came to that conclusion. I mean, we've had 6 in-depth conversations about that, because Stacy was not in 7 the position I was in to be able to make that determination. 8 Q Did anybody -- let's even go to Bob Minton. Did 9 Bob Minton suggest to you, order you, tell you in any way, 10 shape or form what to put in that affidavit? 11 A No. Bob Minton was so disrelated from anything 12 that I was doing in this case. 13 Q Really? How so? I mean, wasn't involved at all? 14 A Bob Minton never cared about the particulars that 15 was going on in this Lisa McPherson case. He never 16 concerned himself with that. 17 His words to me were, "I have hired Ken. He's got 18 the money. He's the best one that -- the best lawyer I 19 could think of to do it. It's his job. It's his 20 responsibility." 21 Q Did Bob Minton say he hired me, Ken Dandar? 22 A No. No. He just said you were the attorney of 23 record. He trusted you. You could -- 24 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton say to you, or to me 25 in your presence, that -- ordering me to charge David Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 348 1 Miscavige with -- in the civil case with murder? 2 A Absolutely not. 3 Q Did anyone -- maybe I haven't mentioned the right 4 name, I don't know. Let's just cover the whole waterfront. 5 Is there anyone that gave you direction or 6 influenced you in any way on how to write that affidavit and 7 what conclusions you reached in that affidavit? 8 A None at all. No one. 9 Q Now, the only other end cycle orders you have seen 10 when you were in RTC, did they only have to do with people 11 who had a terminal illness? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Did you ever come across another circumstance like 14 Lisa McPherson where an end cycle order was given and the 15 person did not have a known, medically diagnosed by a 16 licensed medical doctor, terminal illness? 17 A No. With the exception of what I told you about 18 John Nelson, of course. 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. Judge, just in case it 20 is not present, I just want to go ahead and I marked 21 this affidavit that we've been talking about as 22 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 126. And I'm sure you 23 have so many copies of this already. 24 THE COURT: Is this the one that is 108? 25 MR. DANDAR: No. That is the PC folder one, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 349 1 108. 2 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 3 MR. DANDAR: This is the one that talks about 4 end cycle. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: This is what Paragraph 34 of the 7 fifth amended complaint is dependent upon. I would 8 like to move 126 into evidence. 9 MR. WEINBERG: It is already in evidence, 10 but -- 11 THE COURT: Yes, it is in, but we'll let it in 12 again. 13 MR. DANDAR: Somewhere. I'm not sure where. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Now, Mr. Prince, do you recall seeing, in the 16 deposition testimony of Judy Goldsberry-Webber and 17 Dr. Houghton and Kartuzinski, that liquid injectable Valium 18 was picked up twice, two separate times, at two different 19 places for Lisa McPherson? 20 A Yes. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I object. This just isn't 22 proper. Do you recall seeing somebody else's 23 testimony? I mean, we should be asking Mr. Prince 24 about his testimony, whatever it is, not what he 25 recalls somebody else's has testified to. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 350 1 THE COURT: Well, if he read -- just remember, 2 Mr. Prince was his consultant. If he read some of 3 these depositions in some fashion to assist him with 4 his testimony, I mean, I already heard him talking 5 about Valium which he thought -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Which was never given to 7 Ms. Lisa McPherson. 8 THE COURT: Well, I know that. But we want to 9 listen to what it is he says. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 11 THE COURT: I know that. And I know 12 Kartuzinski was the one who said, "No, we don't use 13 Valium." So, I mean, I know this case a little 14 differently from what Mr. Prince does. But I 15 haven't been to all of the depositions and I haven't 16 read all of the depositions. But I know what I know 17 from this hearing. 18 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 19 THE COURT: And that is that Dr. whatever his 20 name is prescribed the Valium. 21 MR. DANDAR: Minkoff. 22 THE COURT: And Kartuzinski said no. That is 23 all I know. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Mr. Prince, can you tell us how it is that the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 351 1 organization works where if Dr. Minkoff, as he testified, 2 ordered injectable Valium twice for Lisa McPherson, how 3 would the org go about procuring that Valium from a public 4 drug store? 5 A Well, you would have to use -- you know, 6 Scientology in itself is a closed system to that degree 7 because it does disagree -- seemingly disagrees with 8 psychiatric medicines, the use of psychiatric medicines. 9 However, in -- in the case of introspection and a 10 person that is psychotic, there are references of using 11 drugs to treat those people. 12 But Scientology would only go to another 13 Scientologist who would have that same understanding that 14 would provide what they needed because they are kind of like 15 on the same track. I have never seen it work where a doctor 16 outside of Scientology would do that. 17 Q Well, how does the organization work to go about 18 getting the money approved to push the prescriptions? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm sorry to interrupt. 20 But he's asking how Flag would have gotten the money 21 in 1995 or whenever it was. He wasn't there. He 22 wouldn't know that. 23 THE COURT: Well, he can testify as to what he 24 knew when he was there. 25 MR. WEINBERG: In 1982? I mean, it's just -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 352 1 okay. 2 THE COURT: I mean, he -- this is what he based 3 his opinion on. If it had to do with 1982 we just 4 have to take that into consideration. 5 A Well, there is a simple answer to the question 6 because it's a Scientology policy, it's called CSW, 7 completed staff work. Whenever the organization is expected 8 to -- is expected to finance or pay for something, a 9 document is submitted that -- to the person senior and 10 financial persons within Scientology that explains what the 11 situation is, what the handling of it is. 12 If the situation is a person is psychotic and -- 13 you know, and in need of drugs, according to this reference, 14 and handling is to buy the drugs, and then this is okay and 15 they sign it and that gets passed along, the drugs are 16 purchased. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q So it gets passed along to who? 19 A If it was an emergency CSW, which would be 20 accompanied with a purchase order, if it is an emergency CSW 21 with an accompanying purchase order, it would normally go 22 from the person who originated the CSW, to his immediate 23 senior, to the commanding officer or whoever that person 24 designated to be in authority to instantly approve moneys 25 expended by the organization. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 353 1 Q And have you seen a CSW for any of the 2 prescription drugs purchased for Lisa McPherson? 3 A No, I have not. 4 THE COURT: What was the CSW again? 5 THE WITNESS: Completed staff work. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q If -- if the pathologist retained by the state who 9 say that she's in a coma, it was obvious for five days that 10 she wasn't getting any better, she was getting worse, if 11 Heather Hof, in my recollection of what she said, is correct 12 that she was -- Lisa was getting worse as early as 13 December 2, if that is all true, is there any other 14 explanation that you can think of that would explain why 15 nothing was done sooner for Lisa McPherson? 16 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form of the 17 question, your Honor, as a completely improper 18 hypothetical. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 A You know, again, I have studied for 16 years these 21 issues, this stuff with red writing, this stuff with black 22 writing, called staff writing; the only -- this is the way I 23 opine this way, the only reason she would have been treated 24 this way is because she was a threat to Scientology. 25 And Scientology has a principle called the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 354 1 greatest good for the greatest number of the dynamics. The 2 dynamics being the different areas of life that L. Ron 3 Hubbard codified or, you know, decided this is the way it 4 was. 5 In Scientology, the overriding principle is to 6 protect Scientology. That is the greatest good. For her to 7 go in a bad condition to the hospital, complain of what 8 Scientology did to her, to create bad publicity for them, 9 possible lawsuits, possible investigation by law enforcement 10 because she was incarcerated, held against her will, was not 11 anything anyone wanted to deal with. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q How could letting someone die be less of a PR flap 14 than taking them to the hospital while they are alive? 15 A Well, I think it is an empirical fact, because it 16 wasn't -- it was virtually unheard of until a year after her 17 death. When you do enough cover-up -- I mean, you know, not 18 until a year after her death was it even known what happened 19 to her. So it worked for a while. 20 Q Okay. Let's go to -- 21 THE COURT: I have just got to ask a question 22 there. And I had so many but I didn't want to 23 interrupt Mr. Prince. 24 She went straight to the medical examiner. 25 Right? I mean, from the hospital to the medical Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 355 1 examiner? 2 THE WITNESS: Right, with meningitis. 3 THE COURT: Well, whatever. There is a medical 4 examiner who is the one that determines cause of 5 death in this city. 6 THE WITNESS: Correct. 7 THE COURT: If she had been stabbed, if she had 8 been dehydrated, if she had been shot, whatever it 9 is, you take a dead body to the medical examiner 10 when they are not under a doctor's care for the 11 medical examiner to say what is the cause of death. 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 THE COURT: Right? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 THE COURT: I don't know how long it took her 16 to do her work. But the deal was as far as the 17 Church would be concerned, she was delivered to the 18 medical examiner to determine cause of death. 19 Right? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: So any delay was occasioned 22 apparently by some difficulty in determining what 23 was the cause of death. And some disagreements in 24 sending off lab tests and all that sort of stuff. 25 Right? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 356 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So -- so as far as the 3 Church is concerned, Dr. Wood or whoever was going 4 to do the autopsy might have known what they saw in 5 two days. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't believe -- 7 THE COURT: I mean, they have no way of knowing 8 that, that they couldn't just cut her open, look, 9 say, "Whoops, there is a blood clot, this was caused 10 by dehydration." 11 THE WITNESS: Well, wasn't it after the 12 criminal case got started that Mrs. Wood went on 13 national TV and spoke about dehydration and all of 14 these things? Wasn't that -- 15 THE COURT: It may have been. But the fact of 16 the matter was, is within a matter of however soon 17 they got to this body, depending on how many bodies 18 they had -- 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 THE COURT: -- somebody did an autopsy, you 21 know, did an autopsy. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 THE COURT: Dictated findings, and eventually 24 this was put into an autopsy report. And Dr. Wood 25 apparently did go on nationwide TV at some point in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 357 1 time later. 2 THE WITNESS: Right. 3 THE COURT: But, I mean, it still goes without 4 saying that there would be no way for the Church to 5 know what was going to go on at the medical 6 examiner's office. 7 I mean, gosh, they could have said she was 8 stabbed. They may have been wrong. But there is no 9 way of knowing, when a body is taken under unusual 10 circumstances, anybody not under a doctor's care, 11 where a doctor signs off, like in a -- in a -- and a 12 medical examination is done, an autopsy is done, 13 there would be no way for the Church to know what 14 the ultimate result was going to be. 15 Why, look at all of the flap now about the 16 different autopsy reports and what have you. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 THE COURT: Right? 19 THE WITNESS: I agree with you wholeheartedly. 20 THE COURT: So this has been my problem all 21 along is that you talk about a bad public relations 22 flap. 23 THE WITNESS: Right. 24 THE COURT: Well, a death, for heaven sakes, 25 brings about a lot worse public relation than Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 358 1 somebody who goes to the hospital and says, "I was 2 kept there, I didn't want to stay and they brought 3 me here but I want to go home and I don't want to be 4 here" and some charges are brought because of that. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor -- 6 THE COURT: Which they can defend on the way by 7 saying this was a religious -- she was a member of 8 the Church, this was the way we handled this. That 9 would have been the defense. 10 THE WITNESS: Right. And I -- and I beg to 11 differ with you on the fact that it was more 12 convenient to take her to the hospital as opposed to 13 take a dead body there. 14 THE COURT: I didn't say convenient. I said it 15 would be a -- it was a worse public relations flap 16 to have had Lisa McPherson die at the hotel under 17 the care of the Church of Scientology than it would 18 have been for Lisa McPherson to have gotten well in 19 the hospital, having been taken there by the Church 20 of Scientology and had her say, "They held me there 21 and I wanted to leave and they wouldn't let me 22 leave." That would have created less of a public 23 relations flap. 24 THE WITNESS: I beg to differ, your Honor. And 25 the reason I beg to differ is again, like I say, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 359 1 this person has just attested to being almost 2 superhuman. This person has been in the community 3 here in Clearwater. She worked on public relations, 4 on behalf of the Flag Service Organization, setting 5 up the Christmas dealies. She was part of the OT 6 committee whose responsibility is to interface 7 Scientology with the community. Lisa was not a 8 low-profile, no-nothing nobody-person. 9 THE COURT: I understand that. But here we 10 are, we are in this hearing, it is the seventh week 11 of this hearing. This case has been going on seven 12 years. There has been no good publicity that has 13 come out of it, presumably, for the Church of 14 Scientology. 15 All this would have been avoided if they had 16 taken her to a hospital if it had been something 17 that they would have known, they took her to a 18 hospital, and had she said, you know, "Those folks 19 were holding me against my will," and they just 20 said, "No, she was there on introspection rundown," 21 that would have been litigated, long over. 22 Do you think, in the long run, it would have 23 been less of a public relations flap? 24 THE WITNESS: Let's take another perspective of 25 it. If it had gone along as Scientology planned, if Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 360 1 my contention there was a cover-up and they were 2 successfully able to cover up and this girl simply 3 died of embolism, well, who cares? Okay, well, so, 4 you know, another dead person. 5 But if this person came and said, "Hey, look, I 6 have been in here, they have held me, these people 7 have jumped on me, forced drugs down my throat, they 8 shoot me up with needles," you know, I know that -- 9 that they said they never used Valium. I'm sorry, I 10 disagree. I have been through these introspection 11 rundowns. The instant they give that stuff -- they 12 give it to the person because they can't sleep. 13 Otherwise, they are up all night. What they call it 14 is a free will or the person simply cannot sleep so 15 they are giving her drugs to make them sleep. Why 16 would you get the same drug two times and not use 17 it? 18 THE COURT: A person that can't sleep is the 19 person that is psychotic in a very hyperactive 20 state. Right? 21 THE WITNESS: Correct. 22 THE COURT: So, consequently, you would concede 23 that Lisa McPherson was, in fact, in a very 24 psychotic state or she could have slept just fine. 25 THE WITNESS: Something caused her not to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 361 1 sleep. 2 THE COURT: Right. Which, of course, if she 3 was in a psychotic state -- now we are back to that 4 situation where it would have been fairly dangerous 5 for them to let her walk out the door, which -- 6 THE WITNESS: You know, as far as her being 7 psychotic, your Honor, I feel we can only speculate 8 about that, because she was never taken to a doctor 9 and diagnosed as being psychotic when they say she 10 was psychotic. 11 THE COURT: Then she wouldn't have needed 12 Valium to make her sleep, would she? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 THE COURT: I mean, you can't have it both 15 ways. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I'll 17 be quite honest with you. Before I came in here -- 18 I'm tired now because I wasn't able to sleep that 19 well, and I'm sure this will go on until I'm 20 finished. So I don't know, six to one, half dozen 21 of another to me. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Have you ever in your experience seen drugs like 25 Valium or chloral hydrate given to a Scientologist so they Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 362 1 don't leave? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Can we limit it to one or the 3 other? 4 A No, I have not. 5 THE COURT: So you have never seen Valium given 6 to a Scientologist? 7 THE WITNESS: Because they want to leave? 8 THE COURT: Because they want to leave? 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 THE COURT: Because they were sick? 11 THE WITNESS: Because they were -- 12 THE COURT: Psychotic? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 14 THE COURT: When was that? 15 THE WITNESS: Again, this girl, Terese -- 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Teresita? 18 A Teresita. Again, she, you know, literally fell 19 off the chair and started doing her thing. And I think one 20 day passed and she wasn't sleeping, and immediately Dr. Dink 21 was contacted. You could literally see her dying in front 22 of your face. She was just burning up. It was one of the 23 most amazing things to see, kind of like the person caves in 24 on themselves, they just kind of fall in, you know. 25 And this started happening to her after she hadn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 363 1 slept for two and a half, three days. And she came out and 2 she was given an injection. 3 Q Did you -- 4 THE COURT: Was it Valium? That is the 5 question. 6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I couldn't speak 7 truthfully as to what the injection was because the 8 doctor was there, he injected her, and I know that 9 within an hour, hour and a half, she was asleep. 10 THE COURT: So in truth now, Mr. Prince, you 11 can't testify in this courtroom that you ever saw 12 Valium given to someone because they either wanted 13 to leave or because they were psychotic; you don't 14 know what the psychotic person was given? 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Mr. Prince, did you have to assist Teresita in 19 eating and drinking? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 Q How did you do that? 22 A I would just gently talk to her and tell her that 23 it is important for her to eat if she wants to get well. I 24 would tell her the case supervisor has said you have to 25 drink X amount a day. Would you please do it? Just trying Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 364 1 to get her cooperation. 2 Q Could she do it by herself? 3 A No. 4 Q So how did you do it? 5 A Oh, I thought you asked me would she do it by 6 herself. 7 Q Right. Did she pick up the water and drink it by 8 herself? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And the food, did she eat it by herself? 11 A Sometimes I had to take a spoon and put it to her 12 mouth and watch her chew, you know, and, "Did you eat it 13 all," you know. That kind of thing. 14 Q All right. Your opinion that Lisa McPherson died 15 because of an end cycle order, an order just not to do 16 anything for her -- 17 A Correct. 18 Q -- is that opinion based upon because you hate 19 Scientology? Or is it based upon something else? 20 A For one thing, I certainly do not hate 21 Scientology. I don't hate anyone or anything. 22 My opinion is based solely on personal 23 observation, personal experience. I give it as an opinion. 24 I say why. Maybe I haven't said it as clearly as I need to, 25 but it is so important for Scientology. And, you know, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 365 1 especially Clearwater is considered a hostile environment. 2 I mean, I have been here when half the city of Clearwater 3 were picketing around the Ft. Harrison with Michael Flynn. 4 I mean, I have seen and been involved in trying to make this 5 a place where Scientology could comfortably be and the 6 environment would be comfortable with Scientology. 7 So, no, I don't hate Scientology. I was a 8 Scientologist myself for sixteen years. You know, I had a 9 firm belief in what I was doing. I have since become 10 disillusioned with a lot of that. But my motive certainly 11 isn't hate. 12 Q Now, Mr. Prince, there came a time when the Lisa 13 McPherson Trust was formed. Do you recall that? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q And after you finished working for me full-time, 16 you went to work for them full-time. Correct? 17 A Yes. 18 THE COURT: You know, on some of these things 19 you really are going to have to stop leading him. 20 That is one of the issues that is an issue here. So 21 don't ask him a question and then say "Correct?" 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Mr. Prince, were you ever with Bob Minton when he 25 talked about giving money to me for the case? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 366 1 A I have been with Mr. Minton a couple of times, 2 yes. Two or three. Yes. 3 Q I want to direct your attention to May of 2000. 4 A Okay. 5 Q All right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you recall any incident where Mr. Minton talked 8 to you about giving money to me? 9 A Around that exact time period, Mr. Minton made it 10 known to me that you needed more money to bring this case to 11 trial. He had thought in his mind that he had given enough 12 money already and, you know, it could have went to trial or 13 whatever. But he was concerned about the repeated motion 14 and -- motions and on and on, just the cost of the case from 15 the filings and things, that he asked me to go over there 16 and look into, well, what is coming up now, I mean, what can 17 we look forward to now? 18 I think at that time you were working on an 19 accident reconstruction. And Mr. Garko was talking about 20 doing a jury pool survey or something. And these were going 21 to be additional expenses that would be needed, you know, as 22 well as whatever else came up to take the trial -- take this 23 case to trial. 24 And I remember going back and speaking to him 25 about that. And he wasn't very happy about that. And then Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 367 1 he -- he -- he went away -- he came into town. Mrs. Brooks 2 and I were working at the LMT. And he came and he said, 3 "Come here, you guys come out here," because he had a fear 4 that the building that we were in was electronically bugged. 5 And we got in Stacy's car and we went into the 6 city parking lot, which is directly across the street from 7 the LMT Trust. Went to the very top where we could see. 8 And he said, "Look, I'm going to tell you guys, 9 you can't tell anybody this, Ken Dandar has more money, he 10 doesn't know where it came from. It came from Europe. You 11 know, I told him, this is as much as I think I can get, I 12 hope this takes you to trial." 13 That was in 2000. He told us that, you know, he 14 didn't want the office to know, you know, Ken didn't want 15 everybody in the office to know or whatever, but this 16 $500,000 came. And -- and, you know, everything with the 17 case would be okay, basically, was the one instance. 18 The second instance was very recently, I guess in 19 March of 2002 -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, before he gets to 21 the second incident, that happened when, the first 22 incident? 23 THE WITNESS: May of 2000. 24 MR. WEINBERG: May of 2000? 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 368 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Did he say where this $500,000 came from? 3 A Europe. People from Europe. 4 Q Did he say to you it was his money? 5 A No. He said he had arranged from some people from 6 Europe who made this money available. 7 Q Did you ever see that check? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Then the second instance was recently in March of 11 2002. He told me that, "Ken needs more money to finish this 12 case and get this case to trial. You know, I'm willing to 13 arrange to get him some money, but I have a problem with 14 some people on the Internet saying bad things about him. 15 Could you ask Ken if there is any way if he has influence 16 over these people to tell them to stop. And if you do, I'll 17 see if we can arrange to get him some more money." 18 Q So what did you do? 19 A So I went and had that meeting. I went over to 20 your office and I met with you. And I said, "You know, Bob 21 thinks that he can get more money for you but he's concerned 22 about this matter. And what are you doing with that? Are 23 you connected with these people, or are you -- you know, are 24 you encouraging them to do this?" You know, we had a bit of 25 a conversation. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 369 1 And, Mmm, you said you knew nothing about it and 2 had no control over those people whatsoever but, you know, 3 you would do what you could to make it stop if that is what 4 he was worried about, but it wasn't anything you were 5 actively concerned in. 6 Q Do you know anything about the check I got after 7 that? 8 A Mmm, I know at some point that you had gotten a 9 check. And he called me and let me know that you had. 10 Q He did? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. Did he say where that check came from? 13 A He did not. 14 Q Okay. 15 MR. WEINBERG: And the date of that -- the date 16 of the conversation with Mr. Dandar was, you said, 17 March? 18 THE WITNESS: Of 2002. Yes. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Was this before, or after, I flew to Mr. Minton's 21 house? 22 A Before. 23 Q Okay. If I flew to Mr. Minton's house February 22 24 of 2002, when would this conversation be that you and I had? 25 A So I think maybe a week prior. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 370 1 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Minton -- 2 THE COURT: So you are saying that was February 3 of 2002? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 MR. BATTAGLIA: Excuse me, your Honor, what was 6 February of 2000? 7 THE COURT: 2002. This is when Mr. Dandar and 8 this witness had a conversation. 9 MR. BATTAGLIA: Oh. Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Now, I jumped -- when you talked about that 12 meeting, that kind of threw me off because that is two years 13 after where I wanted to talk to you about. So let's go 14 back. 15 Do you know a fellow by the name of Patrick Jost? 16 A Yes. I do. 17 Q Okay. How do you know him? 18 A I know him because he was hired by Mrs. Brooks to 19 specifically assist Mr. Minton to deal with allegations that 20 were being stirred up by Scientology investigators in 21 Nigeria and Switzerland. 22 Q What was he supposed to do? 23 A Mmm, Patrick Jost is multilingual. I think he 24 speaks maybe four or five languages. Mmm, he's also a 25 person -- ex-CIA, spent many years in Europe on behalf of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 371 1 the United States defense. So he knew a lot of people and 2 had a lot of contacts. 3 And he was supposed to go and find out where the 4 trouble was originating from and try to deal with it 5 accordingly. 6 Q Do you know if he was successful in doing that? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, hearsay, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. WEINBERG: This whole thing is hearsay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Did you -- can you describe for us the demeanor of 12 Mr. Minton throughout the years -- almost two years that the 13 Lisa McPherson Trust concerning the -- what he perceived to 14 be actions taken against him by Scientology? 15 MR. BATTAGLIA: I'll object to that as being 16 far too broad, demeanor over a period of two years. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Battaglia, much as I would like 18 to let you object, I don't think you have any 19 standing to object in this hearing. This is a 20 hearing between these two people. Your client is 21 simply a witness. So I'll simply ignore that. 22 MR. WEINBERG: You beat me to my feet because I 23 was about to say the same thing. 24 MR. FUGATE: Stereo. 25 MR. WEINBERG: That is like asking for -- I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 372 1 don't know how you ask a question like that. His 2 demeanor over two years? 3 THE COURT: I agree with that. It was a little 4 broad. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Did Mr. Minton ever talk to you about what he felt 7 concerning the Scientology investigation of him? 8 A Many times, to answer the question. And it wasn't 9 even the fact that investigations were happening. It's the 10 false information. The false information that was being 11 provided to government officials in different countries, 12 unfounded allegations that were being provided, that 13 disturbed him more. 14 And over time it became increasingly more evident 15 that this was having more and more of an effect on him. 16 Q How did you pick that up? 17 A When I first met Mr. Minton, he was probably about 18 40 pounds lighter than he currently is. Just the nicest, 19 gentlest, kindest person. I mean, I had never seen a person 20 like him before. I mean, literally, who am I? Nobody. 21 But a person like that to come around in your life 22 that just was -- I don't know -- genuinely concerned about 23 other people to the point of almost fault. And very -- very 24 kind. Very intelligent person. 25 I seen him go from that, to -- to kind of being a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 373 1 person that is annoyed -- kind of annoyed by what is going 2 on, kind of -- Mmm -- annoyed with, you know, what is 3 happening with his kids, you know, what is happening with 4 his house, his phone lines, on and on. 5 Then I seen him go to a person that actually 6 became very doubtful about what he was involved in, what he 7 was doing. He seemed to be less confident as time went on 8 that he would be able to do anything to restrain Scientology 9 from exercising some of its practices that are detrimental 10 to the general public at large. 11 Q Have you -- are you familiar with the doctrine of 12 Scientology called fair game? 13 A For sure. 14 Q Has fair game been canceled? 15 A No. It's alive and well. 16 MR. WEINBERG: It's what? I couldn't hear. 17 THE COURT: Alive and well. 18 THE WITNESS: Alive and well. 19 MR. WEINBERG: And that is based on your -- 20 THE COURT: Counsel, we're going to let you ask 21 that question later. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I will. I'll withdraw it. I'm 23 sorry. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Based on your expertise and experience in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 374 1 Scientology, did you personally observe any fair game 2 practiced on Mr. Minton? 3 A Yes. I have. 4 Q Can you give us some examples? 5 A Mmm, leaflets passed around in Boston where his 6 wife and children live, saying that he's an adulterous, 7 robbed the Nigerian children -- the Nigerian people of 8 moneys, this is a starving country. And -- and kind of -- 9 he's kind of somehow aligned with the KKK because he was 10 attacking Scientology. 11 Mmm, his children being followed around. 12 You know, the whole Nigeria/Switzerland thing. 13 They used to meet him at every airport he went to, 14 irrespective of any city, they would just show up and meet 15 him and picket him at the airport. I have been with him 16 when the police literally have to stand in the airport and 17 hold Scientologists back from attacking him. 18 I have been with him in Boston where somehow 19 Scientology OSA people had gotten a hold of his -- his -- 20 his records, his counseling records when he was seeing a 21 psychiatrist. And they started saying things to him that he 22 said to his therapist, I know, that upset him extremely that 23 it could even happen. 24 And the fact of the matter is that therapist 25 decided to no longer see Mr. Minton after Mr. Minton went Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 375 1 back and told him, "Hey, why are these guys saying this to 2 me?" 3 Q This was a psychiatrist? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Of Mr. Minton's? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So -- 8 A And -- 9 Q -- he refused to see him after the records were 10 made public? 11 A Correct. Or exposed. His position was exposed. 12 Q Okay. Did there come a point in time when 13 Mr. Minton, in your presence, was -- had any dramatic change 14 in his emotions compared to the years that you have known 15 him? 16 A Again, you know, what I said earlier. For sure, 17 he changed. He became more of a somber person. He wasn't 18 as cheerful anymore. He was more serious. And at some 19 point it even got into, "Well, you know, they did this to me 20 so I'm going to go picket them. They did this to me so I'm 21 going to go picket." 22 You know, this is -- was kind of like his last 23 line of defense, as I testified the first day I came here, 24 that he could possibly do, you know. "I'm just going to go 25 picket. When they fool with my wife, I'm going to picket. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 376 1 When they fool with my children, I'm going to picket. What 2 they are doing over in Nigeria, doing all this crap, I'm 3 going to go picket." 4 So he became increasingly despondent about that. 5 And, you know, Mr. Minton takes medication. Not that there 6 is anything wrong with medication, but sometimes he wouldn't 7 take it. You know, he seemed to just be extremely stressed. 8 And during the time periods when he didn't take his 9 medication, he would literally be in a state of collapse 10 with just -- crying uncontrollably and totally despondent. 11 I remember one time he told me he was going to 12 kill himself. He was walking around in the woods with a 13 gun, you know. 200 acres up there where he lives and it is 14 nothing but beautiful woods in New England and he's walking 15 around with a gun. He drove his car in the woods, got it 16 caught on a tree stump and he's out there in the middle of 17 the night, with a gun, crying. You know, that has happened. 18 Q When did that happen, that particular incident? 19 A That was in the fall of 2001, I believe. 20 Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge concerning Stacy 21 Brooks' desire, in the summer of 2001, to go see Dell 22 Liebreich to get her to drop the case? 23 A Yes. I do. 24 Q What is your knowledge? 25 A Mmm, Scientology had very effectively convinced Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 377 1 the courts -- and I'm not trying to cast any aspersions 2 here -- tried to convince the court that somehow the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust had something to do with this Lisa McPherson 4 case. 5 And this assertion, this stuff that had grew over 6 the years, inextricably tied these two things together, 7 which allowed a way to now do continuing discovery on 8 Mr. Minton and Mrs. Brooks and other staff members that 9 worked at the trust. 10 And this was something that he was very concerned 11 about, because financially it was ruining the Lisa McPherson 12 Trust to have a lawyer have to represent all of the staff 13 members, you know, when they get deposed, and they're away, 14 and on and on and on. So -- 15 Q Did there come a time when -- well, let's go back 16 to the question. 17 Did there come a time when you had knowledge about 18 Stacy Brooks wanting to go to Dell Liebreich? 19 A Yes. So because of that, you know, and there was 20 more discovery by Scientology specifically on Mr. Minton's 21 finances, they were just narrowing down on that, which is 22 pursuant to their policy here to cut off the funds, on and 23 on and on. They are on a systematic program. 24 One thing that can be said about Scientologists, 25 they are extremely organized and they have resources to do Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 378 1 what they need to do. 2 So Stacy thought that, you know, a lot of stress 3 was coming because of this. So she thought, well, the only 4 reason this is happening is because of this wrongful death 5 case. So she decided to go visit with Dell Liebreich and 6 ask her to drop the case because of what was happening with 7 Bob Minton. And she decided to do this without Mr. Minton 8 knowing about it. 9 And she consulted me on it and asked me, "Do you 10 think he will be extremely upset if I do this?" 11 And I told her that I thought he would be 12 extremely upset, you know, without talking to you about it 13 and just go down there because there was no relationship. 14 Stacy had no relationship with Dell Liebreich. 15 So for her to now -- now come out of the blue and 16 ask her to drop the case, it would be like a woodpecker 17 coming along, telling me to pay my house rent or something, 18 something as bizarre as that. So, you know, Stacy decided 19 she was going to do it anyway. 20 She finally asked Bob Minton. And he said, "No, 21 you don't do it. You don't do that." 22 She decided to do it anyway. She attempted to 23 have a phone conversation with Mrs. Liebreich. And I think 24 at that point, after Mrs. Liebreich spoke with Stacy, she 25 then spoke with you and refused to speak with Stacy anymore. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 379 1 Q Are you aware of any instance where Bob Minton 2 controlled the wrongful death case? 3 A Not at all. The wrongful death case was the last 4 thing that Mr. Minton was interested in because he had 5 turned it over to you, he felt you were a competent, honest 6 attorney, and, you know, many arguments have happened 7 between Mrs. Brooks and Mr. Minton concerning the fact that 8 she did not need to be involved in the case, or if there was 9 a differing of opinion, to do what you say because you are 10 the lawyer. 11 And, no, he -- he -- he never -- Bob Minton was 12 more concerned about what was going on at the Lisa McPherson 13 Trust. 14 There was a period of time, after we came into 15 existence and actually established a phone number, that 16 people just started calling like crazy. "Hey, can you help 17 me with this? Can you help me with this? Can you tell me 18 what is going on with my brother? He doesn't speak to me 19 anymore. Can you tell us what it means to be an SP? I need 20 to get my money back from Scientology that I haven't used 21 because I have no life, I don't have a place to live." You 22 know, all of these kind of phone calls. 23 And we -- we became extremely interested because 24 after the trust was set up, it gave you a broad cross 25 section of, well, what types of things do people need help Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 380 1 with in relationship to Scientology? 2 So our job became, well, there is nothing we can 3 do about it. If there is a criminal activity concerned, if 4 there is any fraud that is concerned or bad business 5 practices, at that point we started referring people to the 6 responsible governmental agencies. 7 If you have a problem with them returning your 8 repayment money, you refer them to the Consumer Fraud 9 Department -- Department of Agriculture, Consumer Fraud. If 10 it is bad business practices, the Better Business Bureau. 11 If it has something to do with money -- the IRS could 12 possibly be a person to contact if they are not getting 13 satisfaction with known policies on giving money back. This 14 kind of thing. 15 And we had nothing whatsoever -- and the whole 16 reason I stopped working in your office is that we had gone 17 through deposing the majority of the Scientologists and 18 Scientology witnesses. And you were going on to your 19 medical experts. So there was no reason for me -- I mean, I 20 didn't need to sit and listen to a medical expert being 21 deposed. 22 So I worked at the trust. And this is kind of 23 what we were doing. It was kind of like when you went off 24 doing your medical people, we just forgot about the case. 25 At least, I did. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 381 1 Q So you actually did work at the trust in answering 2 calls for people who needed counseling? 3 A Very much so. 4 Q You weren't just waiting for the trial of the Lisa 5 McPherson case to start? 6 A This trial -- you know, as much as I'm willing to 7 offer my services -- help point out certain things, what 8 happened with Mrs. McPherson was a very unfortunate thing 9 but there are still a lot of people alive that needed help. 10 And that is where I went to -- what I wanted to do. 11 Q What was my involvement with the Lisa McPherson 12 Trust? 13 A Occasionally stop by to have dinner. 14 Occasionally, like maybe I think I maybe seen you there two 15 times during its entire existence, maybe three. 16 Q Did I give any orders to anyone at the Lisa 17 McPherson Trust? 18 A Not that I ever saw. It would be highly unusual 19 if that happened. 20 Q Did I direct any of the picketing? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know if I ever participated in a picket? 23 A No. You know, I was sitting here listening to 24 testimony about that, and I listened with a sharp ear as 25 Judge Schaeffer here mentioned the fact that you shouldn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 382 1 have been anywhere near picketing. 2 And I think what may be kind of misunderstood here 3 is the fact that the vigil is not -- was not and never has 4 been a picketing experience. The vigil is where the people 5 come from all over, they light the candles, they -- they do 6 some Bible stuff, they sing hymns and they may place a 7 wreath where she died at the cabana. That is not a 8 picketing experience. 9 And that is where I have seen you with the vigils, 10 along with the family. And you were there because the 11 family was there. 12 Q Okay. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an objection. 14 In light of Mr. Prince's last statement, he said he 15 understood you had said certain things during the 16 hearing? How would he know that if he was to be 17 excluded? 18 THE COURT: I am sure he read transcripts. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but it is -- 20 THE COURT: It would have been what he read or 21 somebody told him, which would be inappropriate, 22 too. 23 A I think it came up on the first day when I sat 24 here in the courtroom giving testimony where you admonished 25 Ken and pointed that out. I heard that direction from this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 383 1 seat. 2 THE COURT: I'm not excluding you from 3 testifying if you read something or heard something. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm just saying that is not 5 the case. I heard it right here in this seat on the 6 first day I was here. 7 THE COURT: You have to understand to the -- to 8 the rest of the world, if candles are being carried, 9 signs are being carried, it is being done, the 10 Church of Scientology -- it may look and seem like a 11 picket. A lot of folks have talked about it as 12 being a picket. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. But at the vigil there 14 are no signs, though. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Now, did you ever hear Mr. Minton talk about the 18 money that he gave me as -- giving it to me or giving it to 19 the estate? Did you ever hear him talk about that? 20 A I have. And what Mr. Minton has always said to me 21 is he is giving this money to Ken to use on the case at his 22 discretion. He's loaning the money to Ken. That is what I 23 heard. 24 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton write or speak about 25 the LMT or Mr. Minton getting the bulk of any of the money Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 384 1 that may be realized from the wrongful death case? 2 A The only time I heard that statement made was when 3 Mr. Minton came back from a radio interview. And he was 4 laughing. And he said, "Hey, you know what, I just went in 5 there and said the bulk of the proceeds are going to go to 6 an anti-cult group or whatever. And I know this is going to 7 chap Scientology's behind." He was into that kind of tit 8 for tat kind of thing. 9 Q Did you ever hear him talk about it in private or 10 outside of the media's presence? 11 A Well, you know, the particular time that I'm 12 talking about was private, you know. And I -- you know, I 13 made the comment, "Really, you know, is that the way it's 14 going to go?" 15 He said, "Look, I'll probably never see a dime 16 from this stuff. I just said it." 17 Q Okay. Did there come a point in time when 18 Mr. Minton started to express concern over the discovery by 19 Scientology of a UBS check? 20 A What I recall about that, and I mentioned or made 21 reference to it in the affidavit that I did, I guess the 22 last one that I did, the April 2002. 23 He called me just in grief, crying. He's like, 24 "It's over. They got me. You know, I'm going to jail." 25 He's just -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 385 1 THE COURT: Can we have a date on this? You 2 want your last affidavit? I think it was in there. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would probably be a week 4 prior to the meeting that happened on March 28th. 5 So we're talking like maybe March 21st or something 6 like that. You know, the week prior to going to New 7 York. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q All right, here is the April 2002 affidavit. 10 A Okay. 11 MR. DANDAR: Judge, do you need another copy? 12 THE COURT: No. I know it is in evidence 13 somewhere. If I need to see it, I'll ask to see a 14 copy of it. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 A So, you know, I immediately called Mrs. Brooks 17 and -- 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Well, let's back up. 20 Bob Minton called you up, crying, saying, "It is 21 all over." What else? 22 A He said that, Mmm, "I'm going to jail. I have 23 been told I'm going to jail. They're coming after Therese 24 and the kids." 25 And he was just completely despondent about that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 386 1 Q And this was before the New York City meetings? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Yeah. So then -- 5 Q But he didn't go into detail as to why he thought 6 he was going to jail? 7 A No, he wouldn't tell me then. I wanted to know, 8 what is his new thing? What in the heck happened? What new 9 thing has happened? He wouldn't tell me. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Stacy, I called her to try to get additional 12 information. She didn't know what the heck had happened. 13 But she knew she had to go up there. So she went up there 14 that day. 15 Q To New Hampshire? 16 A Yes, to New Hampshire. Subsequent days, I got an 17 idea of what happened. And it had no significance to me, I 18 had no idea that this was a significant incident. 19 But he told me that Mike Rinder had somehow gotten 20 a copy of a check, of the $500,000 check, and told him that 21 he knew that Bob Minton lied in deposition about this 22 $500,000 check and they had the proof and they were going to 23 prosecute him on it. 24 Q Did Mr. Minton say he, Mr. Minton, also had a copy 25 of this UBS check? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 387 1 A No. He said he didn't know how they got a copy 2 because he can't get a copy of it. He said, "I tried. I 3 can't get a copy of it." 4 Somehow, they come up with a copy and show him. 5 And he was just beside himself. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I ask, could 7 we point out in this affidavit where this incident 8 is that he's just described? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Because I don't think it's in 11 there. They are saying something about a $500,000 12 check prior to the New York meetings. 13 THE COURT: You have your affidavit there in 14 front of you? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I do. 16 THE COURT: See if it is in the affidavit, or 17 if it is something not in your affidavit. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay, so here, if you turn 19 to Page 3 of the affidavit, I started talking about 20 what I'm explaining right now on the 20th of March, 21 2002. 22 THE COURT: What is this number? 23 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 9. 24 THE WITNESS: Paragraph Number 9. 25 THE COURT: I don't have it. Maybe I do need Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 388 1 it. What is the number of the exhibit and I'll have 2 the clerk get it? 3 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is attached to 4 Mr. Dandar's response to our memorandum of fact and 5 law. I believe that is where it is. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. FUGATE: Can I give you a copy? 8 THE COURT: Yes, please. If you would, that 9 would be great. I'll give this back to you because 10 I know it is in evidence or in the pleadings. 11 MR. FUGATE: It is in the pleadings, I believe, 12 Judge. 13 MR. DANDAR: He's reading from Paragraph 9 on 14 Page 3. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Am I right? 17 A Yes. But, you know -- yes, that was on Page 3, 18 Number 9, during the time period, what I'm talking about 19 here. 20 And before I wrote this affidavit on the 21 attachment, when I met with Mr. Dandar, I wrote on the first 22 page that -- that Scientology had gathered enough 23 information about Bob Minton to get him prosecuted, 24 convicted and jailed. 25 MR. DANDAR: He's looking at his handwritten Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 389 1 attachment. 2 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 MR. DANDAR: The first page, the first 5 paragraph. 6 THE WITNESS: Did I answer the question? 7 MR. WEINBERG: I asked you -- I asked you, does 8 it say in the affidavit about this conversation you 9 supposedly had with Mr. Minton prior to the New York 10 meetings where he told you that the Church had a 11 copy of a $500,000 check, and he didn't -- 12 THE WITNESS: I don't -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: -- have a copy and didn't know 14 where they got it. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut 16 you off. 17 I don't mention the check specifically, but 18 what I mention is, is the information that 19 Scientology had gotten, information that said they 20 were going to get him prosecuted and put in jail. 21 You know -- 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Paragraph 9, do you talk about the conversation -- 24 the first conversation where he's crying? 25 A Yes. They discovered information about him that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 390 1 threatened his wife and children's future. You know, again, 2 he's suicidal. And then -- 3 THE COURT: In your handwritten notes it 4 appears that you are talking about this -- this 5 information before Paragraph 3 which deals with Bob 6 Minton and Stacy Brooks flew to New York. So I 7 presume you were discussing -- or you -- your notes 8 indicated that occurred before the New York trip? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: I don't think it is very clear, 11 certainly, in the affidavit, but he says that is 12 what he's talking about. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I 14 really did try to do the best I could. This is a 15 very disturbing time for me, too. 16 THE COURT: There is nothing that says that you 17 have to speak to every word of your affidavit. You 18 can expand on it. If that is your testimony, that 19 is fine. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. And, you know, in the 21 days between the New York meeting and the 20th of 22 March that I noted here, which is where I came to 23 find out, you know, what is this. Because Stacy 24 flew there. And after she was there, I let her, you 25 know, get settled. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 391 1 And then he's telling me, you know, they have 2 got this check. And, you know, and he says -- 3 basically, it's come down to me or Ken Dandar, 4 somebody has to die here. 5 And I'm like, you know, this was such a 6 complete turnaround. These are people I worked with 7 now for years. We have all been on one accord, 8 doing what we thought were good work. Suddenly now 9 Mr. Minton has to turn on Ken Dandar. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q And did you have any further conversation in that 12 phone call with Mr. Minton? 13 A Well, he informed me -- 14 THE COURT: This is the phone call before -- 15 you are saying this is the phone call before the 16 first time Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks went to New 17 York? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: We're going to finish that phone 20 call, then we'll take a break. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 A Yes. He said he didn't feel safe about discussing 24 the information over the phone, he was too upset to talk 25 about it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 392 1 MR. DANDAR: All right. 2 THE COURT: Did you say this was about a week 3 before the trip to New York? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I said on or 5 around the 20th of March. And the trip to New York 6 was the 28th of March. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: The 28th and 29th of March. 9 THE COURT: Let me just say this about 10 affidavits. They wanted me to sign an affidavit of 11 borrower to buy my house. And I refused to sign it 12 without -- I said, "I'm not going to sign this 13 without this and this and this and this." 14 And finally they just said, "Well, we're going 15 to throw it out. It is not that important." 16 I said, "Well, good." 17 All this, and affidavits. It makes me very 18 nervous. You know, some things might not have made 19 me so nervous. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Anything else on that phone call with Mr. Minton 22 before we take our break? 23 A Mmm, you know, again, starting on March 20th until 24 they actually went to New York, there were many 25 conversations. You know, I don't want to give the illusion Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 393 1 this just happened one phone call and suddenly they were in 2 New York. 3 THE COURT: Let's go ahead and break and then 4 we'll start with -- if you want to go into the other 5 phone calls before New York. All right? 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 3:15. 8 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:55 to 3:15 p.m.) 9 ______________________________________ 10 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated. 11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, before we begin back 12 again, on May 13, 2002 we had filed a request to 13 produce to Mr. Dandar for all financial records of 14 payments to Jesse Prince, including bank records and 15 checks, all W2s, 1099s, and any other tax form 16 issued from Dandar & Dandar for Jesse Prince for tax 17 years 1999, 2000 and 2001. It was never responded 18 to. 19 I think it is now relevant, based on the 20 testimony elicited, that that be produced, or at 21 least responded to that was filed May 13th of 2001 22 (sic). 23 MR. DANDAR: Didn't we respond to that? 24 THE COURT: Had you responded to this? 25 MR. DANDAR: We produced at the time they took Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 394 1 Jesse Prince's deposition -- he's no longer working 2 for me -- all of the W2s, 1099s, all of the checks 3 we wrote. We did not respond to that one. 4 THE COURT: Is there anything additional? 5 MR. DANDAR: I'll have to check. I'm sure -- 6 you know, since I brought him back on board as my 7 expert, yes, I paid him since then. So there is 8 something additional. But not back on May 13. 9 THE COURT: You don't need him to regive you 10 what he has already given you. 11 MR. FUGATE: No, I'll go verify what we have 12 and compare that to what he gives us. But -- but he 13 needs to respond. And he needs to give us -- 14 THE COURT: I'm not going to require you to 15 give him what he gave you already. So if he gave 16 you stuff for the depositions -- 17 MR. FUGATE: I'll check that tonight. 18 THE COURT: Then you must give him whatever 19 else there is. 20 MR. DANDAR: I will. 21 THE COURT: Try to have that to him by the 22 morning. All right? 23 MR. DANDAR: All right. 24 THE COURT: You may continue. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 395 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay, Mr. Prince, following that telephone 3 conversation, which you said was on or about March 20, 2002 4 with Mr. Minton, did you have any more conversations with 5 him before he went to see Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen in New 6 York City? 7 A Yes, I did. I may have had maybe three to four 8 conversations with Mr. Minton and Mrs. Brooks concerning 9 this. Yes. 10 Q Before the New York City meeting? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And what was your relationship with Mr. Minton at 13 that time? 14 A Mr. Minton was a good friend of mine. A person 15 that I trusted. You know, we worked together. 16 Q Okay. Did he confide in you? 17 A Yes. On some things, he certainly did. 18 Q And some things, he didn't? 19 A I can't say that he confided in me on everything. 20 But I know some things he did. 21 Q All right. For instance, when he talked about 22 somehow this check was going to make him and his wife go to 23 jail, did he confide in you what it was that they got -- 24 this new thing in the year 2002 that caused him to think he 25 was going to go to jail? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 396 1 A You know, he said that they got a copy of that 2 check, that -- Mmm -- that he -- you know, had given 3 different testimony, I think, in a deposition or something. 4 And this is what was going to -- this is how they were going 5 to put him in jail for perjury. 6 Q And did he -- all right. Did he go into more 7 detail how that was going to be perjury? 8 A Because he said that he had given testimony 9 contrary to -- you know, in other words, this check, this 10 $500,000 check, came from him, apparently, not people from 11 Europe. Scientology had discovered that. And they were 12 going to use it to get him convicted for perjury. 13 Q Did you ask him why he lied to you and told you 14 that check was from people in Europe? 15 A You know, that was a very good question that I 16 should have asked. But at the time this was all new news to 17 me. He's telling me, you know, "Oh, well, it came from me, 18 it didn't come from him. Now I'm in trouble and now they 19 are getting ready to depose my wife Therese and bring her in 20 on all of this stuff." 21 And in the heat of the moment, the panic of the 22 moment, I'm sure I didn't ask, you know, all of the right 23 questions. But no, I didn't ask him that specific question. 24 Q During those three or four other telephone calls 25 with Mr. Minton before the New York meeting he had with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 397 1 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder, did Mr. Minton tell you how it was 2 that Scientology can find out that this bank check from UBS 3 that doesn't have his name on it came from him? 4 A The only comment he said was he had no idea how 5 they possibly got a copy of that check because he himself 6 did not have a copy, nor did he know how to obtain a copy. 7 Q Did Mr. Minton ever mention to you anything about 8 Swiss prosecutors during -- before the New York meeting? 9 A Yes, he did. He told me that there was yet 10 another action being contemplated by a prosecutor in 11 Switzerland. And it was my understanding that this had 12 something to do with Nigeria but I'm not sure. You know, I 13 don't know the details of it. 14 Q And he told you this in March before the New York 15 meeting? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now, isn't it true that before Minton called -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form to the 19 question, "Isn't it true." 20 THE COURT: Yes, "isn't it true" is suggesting 21 that the answer to that is yes. I mean, I don't 22 know what the question is, but I know what the 23 answer is. That is what the leading part is. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q What was your understanding, Mr. Prince, of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 398 1 status of the Swiss prosecution concerning Mr. Minton prior 2 to Mr. Minton's frantic calls to you in March of 2002? 3 MR. FUGATE: Objection, hearsay. Or at least 4 the basis for this statement, "What was your 5 understanding." 6 THE COURT: If it came from Mr. Minton, he can 7 answer. If it came from somebody else, then I am 8 not sure you can answer. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q From Mr. Minton. 11 A Mr. Minton told me they were going to prosecute, 12 going to file charges. 13 THE COURT: In Switzerland? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q When did he tell you that? 17 A Mmm, at one of the phone conversations between the 18 20th and 28th of March. 19 Q Well, my question is prior to that, had you ever 20 heard from Mr. Minton about Swiss prosecutors? 21 A Oh, yes. I mentioned that before. 22 Q Right. And what was the status of the Swiss 23 prosecution prior to you getting this call -- 24 A These phone calls? Oh, I thought it was over. 25 Q What made you think that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 399 1 A Because Patrick Jost had went over there and 2 talked with people. 3 There was one other thing that was pending which, 4 when Scientology got the bank records for the Bank of 5 America, somehow the Bank of -- someone in the Bank of 6 America in Europe, some executive or some banking official, 7 had did something that was improper concerning either 8 divulging or passing along information about Mr. Minton's 9 accounts. And Mr. Jost was over there to pursue that. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay as to any 11 conversations with Mr. Jost or anybody else. If 12 he's saying this is something Mr. Minton said, I 13 would appreciate if he could date it. 14 THE COURT: Is this something you learned from 15 Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Could you tell us about when 18 that was? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, gosh. This -- this would 20 have to be in the fall of 2001. Maybe October, 21 something like that. 22 THE COURT: As best you can remember? 23 THE WITNESS: As best I can recall, yes. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q All right. What was it the Bank of America Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 400 1 official in Europe did improperly, according to Mr. Minton, 2 what he told you? 3 THE COURT: Does this have something to do with 4 this Swiss prosecution? 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. 6 A This has something to do with when the bank 7 records were obtained by Scientology here, the Bank of 8 America somehow simultaneously did something -- something 9 happened in Europe, as well. I think they used the fact 10 they had these records to get information that they were not 11 supposed to get, they made it appear like the Court 12 sanctioned them having this information or it was proper for 13 them to get the information, when it was not. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q How did Mr. Minton react to them getting this 16 information in Europe? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Your Honor, this is 18 hearsay based on hearsay. It is speculation. Then 19 the question is how did they react to the Church 20 supposedly getting this information in Europe? What 21 information in Europe? What is he talking about? 22 This is just hearsay. 23 And, you know, Mr. Minton testified. 24 Mr. Dandar had an opportunity to ask Mr. Minton 25 about this. He didn't say anything about this, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 401 1 about this accusation or anything like this. He 2 didn't even ask him the question. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. This bears on Mr. 4 Minton's state of mind, anything Mr. Minton may have 5 said about what he thought was going on, what the 6 Church knew. Remember, we had a lot of this, as I 7 tried to explain. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I object more to the form of the 9 question. When he said the Church did such and such 10 at such and such a time, it is just an improper 11 form, I think. 12 MR. DANDAR: It is based on the witness's 13 answer. 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 A He was very distraught and upset that this had 16 happened. You know, he felt like that there was no one that 17 could be trusted or no one who was impervious to 18 Scientology's ability to penetrate and get information that 19 they should necessarily have. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just for the record, 21 so we are talking about now the fall of 2001 that 22 he's distraught? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Is this -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 402 1 THE COURT: The same October period of 2001? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q And even -- did you have any conversations with 5 Mr. Minton in January or February of 2002 before you had 6 this -- what you described as this March 20 -- the first 7 call in 2002? 8 A Conversations concerning? 9 Q Mr. Minton's well-being, his mental state? 10 A Well, Mr. Minton -- back in the fall of 2001, we 11 decided that we could no longer operate the Lisa McPherson 12 Trust. He was quite despondent about that. He was 13 despondent about what to do with the people that we were 14 either in the process of servicing or starting some -- 15 something with new people that were calling. And plus the 16 phones just never stopped ringing. So he was distraught 17 over the fact that it wouldn't be there anymore. 18 He was distraught over the fact he felt 19 Scientology had successfully caused the Lisa McPherson Trust 20 to no longer exist because of a misunderstanding, that 21 misunderstanding being that it was somehow inextricably tied 22 into the Lisa McPherson case. 23 Q Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks order you to quit 24 being the expert for the estate? 25 A Ms. Brooks asked me to -- and this, again, is in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 403 1 the fall of 2001 -- to not be an expert in this case on the 2 theory that anything -- we were trying to sever any real or 3 imagined ideas that the Lisa McPherson Trust was connected 4 with the ongoing litigation. 5 Q And did you listen to her? 6 A No. I -- I -- I consulted Bob about that. I had 7 a conversation with him. 8 And he told me that Mrs. Brooks was very upset 9 about the discovery that was going on, particularly the 10 finances. And -- Mmm -- this is why she was doing it. And 11 he understood why she was doing it. And -- Mmm -- what he 12 said, you know, "If Ken -- you are Ken's expert. If he's 13 going to need you, you know, I'm sure you're going to go and 14 do what you have to do." 15 MR. WEINBERG: Could we date that, your Honor, 16 when that conversation took place? 17 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think we were speaking 18 about late 2001/early 2002. Maybe January, around 19 there. This is as close as I can place it. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Well, prior to that, you filed or signed an 22 affidavit dated September of 2001 withdrawing as the expert 23 for the estate. 24 A Okay. 25 Q So was this conversation with Stacy Brooks before, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 404 1 or after, that affidavit? 2 A Preceding that. 3 Q So it was before that? 4 A Correct. 5 Q All right. And in that affidavit -- do you recall 6 that affidavit when you withdrew as the expert? 7 A Not particularly. 8 Q No? 9 A I mean, I have a general idea. 10 Q What is your general idea of why you withdrew as 11 the expert? 12 A Mmm, again, this was during the time period when 13 the Lisa McPherson Trust was in the process of closing. The 14 trust itself had literally been drained of operating funds 15 for, you know, paying lawyers. This wasn't anything that we 16 ever anticipated or budgeted for. And it became the most 17 expensive part of the operation, which was trying to step 18 away from this case. And that is what I remember about it. 19 Q Let me show you your signed affidavit 20 September 21, 2001 and see if you can identify that. 21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, do you need another copy of 22 this? 23 THE COURT: No. No. This is the one I 24 remember quite well. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 405 1 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, is he impeaching 2 Mr. Prince with this affidavit now? 3 THE COURT: I don't know if he's trying to 4 refresh his memory or what. 5 MR. DANDAR: Refresh. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q First of all, is that your affidavit? 8 A Yes, it is. 9 Q Did you prepare that affidavit? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q Did you sign it? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Is that the affidavit that you signed concerning 14 the reasons for your withdrawal as the estate's expert? 15 A Yes, it is. And, you know, I remember because I 16 was talking about now the trust was closing, there were no 17 lawyers -- I mean we just couldn't afford to pay lawyers 18 anymore. 19 I personally cannot afford to have a lawyer to 20 come in here and do activities like you are involved in or 21 represent me or -- or be here on my behalf. I have a 22 family. I have people that are totally innocent to this and 23 could care less. 24 But my family was threatened with the Scientology 25 operation that was wrought on me to plant drugs in my house Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 406 1 and get my house raided by the DEA, and try to get multiple 2 charges put against me. And now I'm losing my job, too. 3 There is no way that I could continue this activity without 4 being able to see that my family would be safe and cared 5 for. 6 Q Did you continue to receive income from Bob Minton 7 or Stacy Brooks in the fall of 2001? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And the income you received in the fall of 2001, 10 was that from Stacy Brooks individually, or from the Lisa 11 McPherson Trust? 12 A I think it was probably Ms. Brooks individually. 13 Q Okay. What about 2002? Did she continue to pay 14 you? 15 THE COURT: When did -- when did LMT close down 16 again? I have been away from this awhile and some 17 of the details are out of my mind. 18 MR. DANDAR: It closed in August. 19 THE COURT: Of 2001? 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Well, you tell us, Mr. Prince, instead of me. 23 What was going on in the LMT in the fall of 2001? 24 A They were closing -- wrapping up, closing down, 25 terminating the operation. Mmm, there was an order to allow Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 407 1 a magistrate to come in and go through the personal files 2 and records at the trust. So for a month or two it was kind 3 of kept open for that reason alone, just to finish that. So 4 that -- you know, there was an extensive library that -- 5 that library had to be shipped, cleaned -- the building had 6 to be cleaned up and prepared to be sold. 7 It became our responsibility to ensure that the 8 building did get sold. I had a verbal agreement with 9 Mr. Minton, because at that point I didn't have a lot of 10 money either, that if I sold the building, I would get 11 25 percent of whatever the building sold for so that I could 12 move -- I was in the process of leaving Clearwater. My 13 house was on the market. We were finished -- the trust was 14 over. We were finished. 15 I mean, if that is what Scientology wanted, they 16 had accomplished it. It was finished. We were all moving. 17 I put my house on the market, put the building on the 18 market, we were trying to sell it. We're -- we're done. 19 But it is never done, I guess. 20 Q Back to 2002, do you believe -- have we exhausted 21 your conversations with Mr. Minton or Stacy Brooks prior to 22 the New York City meetings? 23 A The only additional things -- 24 THE COURT: I just dread the thought of asking 25 this question, but are you suggesting there is some Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 408 1 agreement between you and Mr. Minton regarding the 2 sale of real estate, as to your receiving proceeds 3 from it? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I see. Is there a lawyer in the 6 room that wants to take that on a contingency? 7 Probably not, Mr. Prince. 8 Okay. Continue on. 9 THE WITNESS: You know, I missed the point. I 10 guess you'll explain it to me later. 11 MR. DANDAR: That is all right. 12 THE WITNESS: I hate to miss the punch line. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q So anything else about these phone calls, before 15 we get to the New York City meeting? 16 A Well, the only other thing I think I covered in my 17 affidavit that Mr. Minton said is, you know, after having 18 conversations with Mr. Rinder, that it basically boiled down 19 to who is going to die? Is it going to be Ken Dandar? Is 20 it going to be me. And I -- 21 THE COURT: Is that the word he used, "die"? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. And for the 23 life of me, you know, I couldn't get a concept of 24 what he was saying. I mean, he said it several 25 times -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 409 1 THE COURT: Is this -- I'm sorry, my mind is 2 off on agreements and it is kind of an insider joke 3 that has nothing to do with you really, a lot of 4 agreements we're talking about in this particular 5 hearing, and we teasingly asked about what lawyer 6 would take what on a contingency fee. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. So nobody wants my 8 opinion. 9 THE COURT: Well, it will be volunteered, 10 Mr. Prince. 11 Was this before or after the New York meeting, 12 this conversation? 13 THE WITNESS: This was before the New York 14 meeting. This is after Ms. Brooks arrived. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: He was telling me that, you know, 17 that somebody has to die. 18 And, you know, Bob has always come to me, when 19 he wanted to interface or maybe know something from 20 Ken, he's asked me, you know. So for the life of 21 me, I couldn't figure out how is it now that 22 suddenly we sit here today and we have to decide who 23 dies. Why does anyone have to die? That was my 24 question. 25 And -- Mmm -- he told me that for them -- for Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 410 1 him not to go to jail and be prosecuted -- and he 2 had actions going in both cases in front of both 3 judges, Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird -- that he 4 somehow had to make this case go away, the Lawrence 5 Wollersheim case go away, and that is -- he said, 6 "That is all -- that is what they said they want. 7 So we're going to go talk about that." 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q In New York City? 10 A Yes. 11 Q All right. And -- all right. Anything else, 12 before we get to New York City? 13 A That -- Mmm -- Stacy was just adamant that she 14 would be able to successfully settle with Scientology so 15 that they would disengage Bob Minton, because he was 16 literally being driven insane. He was terrorized into a 17 state of mind that was beyond anything he was capable of 18 dealing with. 19 THE COURT: Did you ever ask him what -- when 20 he used the word "die," whether he was -- I mean, we 21 all say, "Oh, I'm just going to die if such and such 22 happens." But he was not using that word in a 23 literal sense, that was a -- 24 THE WITNESS: Well, I asked him later about 25 this. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 411 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: After they came back from New 3 York and was in the hotel, what was he talking 4 about. 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 THE WITNESS: And what he was talking about was 7 saying that Ken Dandar, as one thing, perjured -- 8 you know, blamed the perjury on Ken. I mean, these 9 are all things to do to get rid of the case. Okay, 10 so now we made Ken responsible for any perjury that 11 Bob Minton did. Then, you know, he mentioned about 12 what's going to happen is Mr. Dandar is going to be 13 disbarred. 14 And I took it a step further. I said, "Well, 15 if Mr. Dandar gets disbarred, he's going to lose his 16 business. If Mr. Dandar loses his business, he's 17 going to lose his home and his family. Is this 18 really what you want for Ken Dandar after you built 19 him up all of this time, and now you get in trouble 20 and now this is what we do?" 21 THE COURT: So, again, I think my question was 22 is we all tend to use the word "die" and we don't 23 really mean it literally, drop dead, I mean, die. 24 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, I don't think -- 25 THE COURT: He meant either business-wise or Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 412 1 something? 2 THE WITNESS: Professional decease, to cause 3 decease, which is in accord with one of the 4 Scientology policies we have gone over here. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Is that known as fair game? 7 A No. It is called the Scientologist's Manual of 8 Dissemination, where it talks about, if possible, of course, 9 ruin the person utterly. 10 Q Let's get to New York City. Did you have any 11 conversations with Bob Minton or Stacy Brooks about the New 12 York City meeting with Rosen, Rinder and Yingling? 13 A Yes, I did. When they were traveling to New York 14 City, I was traveling to Memphis, Tennessee to drop my 15 family off. It had just reached a peak for me. And I just 16 wanted to have some safety in my life. 17 So they called me when they left home. They 18 called me when they arrived. They called me when they met, 19 had the first meetings. They seemed somewhat hopeful. 20 Then, of course, the next day happened. 21 But when they got there, you know, Steve Jonas 22 arrived. They were there. They met. They went over what 23 they wanted. And Bob -- you know, one of the things Bob 24 did, which I didn't know he was going to do until he got to 25 New York, is he said he wanted my house to be able to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 413 1 sold, because I had had my house on the market for some 2 time, zillions of people were coming there. And, you know, 3 unfortunately, it just didn't sell. 4 So he thought that that may have had some 5 Scientology influence. And the reason why I think he thinks 6 that, because the realtor for our building -- 7 THE COURT: He? This is Mr. Minton again? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 A The realtor for the building in downtown called 11 Mr. Minton while he was in New York and told him he had had 12 a buyer for the LMT building, and this buyer was a person 13 that sold furniture, sold used furniture. 14 And he mentioned this potential buyer -- this 15 potential buyer mentioned to his clients, current clients, 16 that he was going to move his operations to this building, 17 and would that be okay, would he still be able to service 18 them. 19 And he came back and said he found out that 20 45 percent of his clients were, in fact, Scientologists. 21 And he was told in no uncertain terms that if he moved into 22 that building, that they would no longer do business with 23 him. So -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object. 25 A He couldn't -- he couldn't -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 414 1 MR. WEINBERG: This is hearsay on hearsay. 2 This is supposedly what Mr. Minton said that 3 somebody said. 4 THE WITNESS: No. Mr. Minton said to me that 5 the realtor -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Said to him. Objection, double 7 hearsay. 8 THE COURT: I do understand. But, remember, 9 this has to do with Mr. Minton and whether 10 Mr. Minton has lied or whether Mr. Dandar is lying. 11 Mr. Minton's state of mind, therefore, becomes, to 12 some extent, relevant. 13 I understand it is double hearsay. I 14 understand what that means. But I'll allow it. It 15 is a very unusual hearing. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q So when did you first hear back from Bob Minton 19 concerning the first day of the New York City meeting on the 20 28th? 21 A The night of the 28th after they met. He said, 22 "Well, we met." 23 I spoke to Stacy. She said, "I think it is going 24 to be okay. I think we'll be able to work this out. Ken 25 Dandar is not going to be happy." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 415 1 Mmm, you know, I said, "Okay," whatever that 2 meant, because, you know, I'm not really tracking. I just 3 know something traumatic has happened, it has to do with 4 some information that came up on Bob, and I know that now 5 Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton are in negotiations to disengage 6 this whole thing, and I am not there but they are calling 7 me, telling me what is going on. 8 Q Did they tell you why I would not be happy? 9 A Whew. Because they were going to say that you 10 caused Bob Minton to lie about the check -- that you advised 11 him to lie about the check. This was during that particular 12 time. 13 THE COURT: Is this Ms. Brooks testifying -- or 14 Ms. Brooks telling you this? Or is this Mr. Minton 15 telling you this? 16 THE WITNESS: You know, it is kind of a bit of 17 both, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Was this over the telephone? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: This was after the first New York 21 meeting? 22 THE WITNESS: This was the night of the first 23 day of the meeting on the 28th. 24 THE COURT: Of March? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 416 1 THE COURT: It was this night they were 2 explaining to you -- either Bob or Stacy, or both of 3 them, on the phone, explaining why Ken wasn't going 4 to be happy? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, Mr. Prince, I want to make sure you don't 9 have your dates mixed up. Could you look at your affidavit 10 to refresh your memory and make sure you have your dates 11 down when you first mentioned that Ken Dandar wasn't going 12 to be happy. 13 A Okey-doke. Okay, I'm looking at my affidavit -- 14 Q By the way, who typed that affidavit? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 16 THE COURT: Just a second now. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I object to this process. He 18 has done this a number of times. He elicits 19 testimony. Mr. Prince testifies, he's very 20 specific, he had this conversation. 21 Then Mr. Dandar takes his affidavit and says, 22 "Well, look at this and see if it is really your 23 testimony." He's impeaching him. 24 MR. DANDAR: Well -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think it is proper. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 417 1 THE COURT: I think that I'm -- I have heard 2 his testimony. I think he can look at his affidavit 3 and see if it refreshes his memory. If it does, 4 I'll just have to remember his testimony was 5 different before it was refreshed with this 6 affidavit. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 8 A Yes. Okay. I talk about the problem with the 9 checks. We talked about that again. This was the next day 10 on the 29th -- now, wait a minute. "Bob told me he 11 called --" now, see, this is before they went to New York, 12 "Bob told me he made -- " 13 THE COURT: You are going way too fast. 14 A "Scientology was going to put him in jail." 15 THE COURT: What page are you on, please? 16 THE WITNESS: I'm on Page 3. Bottom of Page 3, 17 Line 27 -- 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 THE WITNESS: -- and 28. "Bob said there was a 20 problem with some checks he had given to Ken 21 Dandar." 22 That was the -- 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q That is before the New York trip? 25 A Yes. Okay, so they arrive in New York. "The next Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 418 1 day, on the 29th, the next day around noontime," I'm on Page 2 4, Line 10, "Stacy called me. She was upset. Bob was going 3 to jail for contempt in front of Judge Schaeffer, going to 4 jail for perjury in front of Judge Baird. At this point 5 they had only mentioned to me about the wrongful death suit 6 and the Wollersheim suit having to be dismissed for Bob not 7 to go to jail. Mr. Rinder --" 8 THE COURT: You don't have to read out loud. 9 You really are looking to see when it was that -- if 10 this -- if this refreshes your memory as to when 11 this statement about why it was that Mr. Dandar 12 would not be happy. 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q When did that first occur? 16 THE COURT: When it occurred. 17 A Either the 28th or the 29th, one of those two 18 days. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Okay. And then again I want you to look at your 21 affidavit -- 22 A And, you know, this information was sketchy 23 because I didn't get the full picture until they came here 24 to Florida. I wasn't able to divine the full picture until 25 they actually came back from that meeting. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 419 1 Q Okay. 2 A Now -- 3 Q Do you recall -- do you recall that Mr. Minton 4 called you up, after the second day of the New York City 5 meeting, to talk to you about a phone call he received from 6 Mr. Rinder? 7 A Oh, after they got back from New York? 8 Q Right. 9 A Yes -- well, no. Stacy is the one that I spoke 10 to. 11 Q What did she say? 12 A She said, after they got back from New York, they 13 were all upset and thought they wouldn't be able to 14 negotiate with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen. 15 Q Why? Why wouldn't they be able to negotiate? 16 A Because they told Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder flat 17 out that they had no influence to get either of these cases 18 dismissed or made go away or whatever, they had no authority 19 to do that; that Stacy Brooks had already made an attempt to 20 contact Dell Liebreich to get her to drop the case, so she 21 wasn't interested in hearing from Stacy; and Mr. Wollersheim 22 certainly -- and Mr. Leipold were certainly not interested 23 in dismissing their case, either. 24 THE COURT: When -- now, I'm so confused, and I 25 haven't read your affidavit in some time so I'm Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 420 1 listening basically to your testimony. 2 You indicated -- what I think you just said is 3 Ms. Brooks told you on the telephone that she had 4 told Mr. Rinder that they didn't have the proper 5 influence to get the case dismissed? 6 THE WITNESS: See, I'm totally screwing this up 7 if you think that, your Honor, because what I'm 8 saying there is that happened in New York where they 9 were face-to-face with Mr. Rinder, with -- at least 10 this is what was relayed to me by Stacy and by Bob 11 on the phone conversation when they left the office, 12 I think it was about noontime on the 29th where they 13 tried to make it clear that they had no influence 14 over these cases and they were asking them to do 15 something they were not able to do. 16 THE COURT: What confuses me, if I did 17 understand your testimony, after the New York 18 meeting, perhaps the very night of the New York 19 meeting, Stacy called and -- Stacy and/or Bob called 20 and said, "I think we're going to be able to work 21 this out." 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was after they came 23 back to New Hampshire, left New York, because they 24 were back in New Hampshire that day. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 421 1 THE WITNESS: It was either that night or the 2 next day I spoke to Stacy Brooks, and she said she 3 had received a second conversation from Mr. Rinder, 4 who mentioned that he thought that there may have 5 been a misunderstanding, while he understood that 6 they legally -- or, you know, weren't plaintiff or 7 defendant, had no standing to effect these cases one 8 way or another, that there were things that could be 9 done to get the same result. 10 THE COURT: This was another conversation with 11 Mr. Rinder and Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks, when they 12 told you about that, that is when they said, "We 13 think we can do something but it is not going to 14 make Ken Dandar happy"? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Would that be on the 29th, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: I believe. 19 THE WITNESS: The 29th or the 30th or such a 20 date of this. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Of March? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q When did you get the details about what that meant 25 about Ken Dandar not being happy? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 422 1 A When they traveled to Florida for the Judge Baird 2 hearing that was, I think, occurring on April 5. 3 Q That is Judge Schaeffer. 4 A Hmmm? 5 Q Judge Schaeffer was April 5? 6 A That is right. Judge Schaeffer was April 5. But 7 they had a Baird one right the next week or whatever. 8 Q Right. 9 A Anyway, when they came down for that activity, 10 then we had a meeting at the Harbour Bay Hotel in Tampa, 11 Florida where they made it clear to me what was happening 12 here. 13 Because I asked them, "Did you find out what these 14 things were that you can do to make these cases go away?" 15 I'll start with Wollersheim because that will be 16 quickly. 17 Q All right. 18 A She said what she had already done and told 19 Scientology she would do and had done, that she called Dan 20 Leipold and told him to withdraw her testimony -- her 21 affidavits in the Wollersheim case, and she had instructed 22 him to do the same for my affidavits. 23 And there was only three, Vaughn Young, Stacy and 24 me. Vaughn Young, because of his physical condition, how 25 upset he would be to even do that, she told me she had not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 423 1 promised Scientology anything in relationship to Vaughn, but 2 she could promise the relationship to me and her. 3 Q How did you react to your affidavit being 4 withdrawn? 5 A I was shocked. I was like, "I'm not withdrawing 6 my affidavit." 7 Q Why did she want to withdraw her affidavit? 8 A Because these are the things that she could do -- 9 you know, they want -- they want what are the things you can 10 do? What you can do is take your testimony out. Take 11 Jesse's testimony out of there. Because there was only 12 three witnesses that they were using on the issue of alter 13 ego to claim the judgment. 14 Q Did you ever -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: Before -- could we just date 16 that? Is that at Harbour Island? Is that what you 17 are saying? Could we just date it? 18 THE WITNESS: I think I dated it in the 19 affidavit. 20 THE COURT: You want to look at your affidavit 21 and see if you can find it then? 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. Yes, Page 5, Line 23 11. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q What is the date? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 424 1 A If you look at Line 22, he starts talking about 2 things that could be done. 3 THE COURT: Line 22? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Where it starts talking 5 about things that could be done. 6 THE COURT: And that is where you use the 7 phrase, "Ken Dandar was not going to be happy"? 8 THE WITNESS: Right. So when we met at the 9 hotel, you know -- and I'm doing the best job I can 10 here -- I asked them -- they mentioned about getting 11 the affidavits out of the Wollersheim case, then 12 specifically here in the wrongful death case -- 13 "Well, what are you going to do with that?" 14 "Well, Mmm, we're going to --" they had a 15 couple of things they were going over. One, the 16 perjury of the check to make it seem like it was Ken 17 Dandar's fault. 18 And then they were insistent about some meeting 19 that had occurred which included myself, Dr. Garko, 20 Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton, Mr. Dandar, where we were 21 discussing adding Mr. Miscavige as a party, and how 22 Ken Dandar had instructed Mr. Minton to say the 23 conversation never happened, something about it 24 never happened. 25 Now, you know, for me, I'm not understanding Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 425 1 this because it is not making a whole lot of sense 2 why it would matter one way or another. You know, 3 I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a criminal, I didn't 4 understand what they were talking about. 5 But those were two things specifically that 6 they mentioned bringing out about Mr. Dandar and 7 connecting him with perjury. 8 THE COURT: One was the check? Is it the 9 $500,000 check that you testified to previously? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Number two was some meeting that 12 occurred dealing with adding Mr. Miscavige as a 13 party? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Was there anything else of how they were going to 17 get Ken Dandar, besides these two items? 18 A Well, the only other thing that came up -- I knew 19 about those two things. But then they had the meeting with 20 Judge Schaeffer where Bruce Howie did something, and the 21 whole thing was moot. And they were happy about that. 22 I think maybe that same day he got served with the 23 Armstrong suit. And he told me, "It's not over, I still 24 have got to go in front of Judge Baird." 25 Now, I think at that same time the decisions came Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 426 1 down from the 2nd -- from the appeals court concerning 2 discovery issues with finances and this, that and the other 3 thing, so it was kind of like things were turning around. 4 So I'm questioning them, "Do you really think you 5 need to do this?" 6 And they are trying to elicit my cooperation, like 7 we used to have this thing amongst us, me, Stacy and Bob, we 8 called ourselves the A team. There was three of us, this is 9 an A team activity. It is tough at the top, we have to make 10 some hard decisions here, you know. So I'm part of that 11 entity. So we're discussing these matters. And, Mmm -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, is this all one 13 conversation? Does it mean it happened after your 14 hearing on April 5? 15 THE COURT: I'm not real sure. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 THE COURT: Was this all at the same 18 conversation? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, your Honor, maybe not 20 because, I mean, I was with them the whole time and, 21 you know, Page 5, starting at Line 11 -- 16, Number 22 11 on the affidavit, I talked about the time periods 23 we were there, the 2nd or 3rd of April through -- 24 THE COURT: Did you try, in your affidavit, to 25 date the time frames when these conversations took Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 427 1 place as you remembered them? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I sat there with a 3 calendar and I did it as best I could. 4 THE COURT: Okay. So those are the dates as 5 best you can recall? 6 THE WITNESS: As best I can recall. 7 THE COURT: All right. So whatever it says in 8 the affidavit is the best he can recall. 9 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is the way I sat and 11 worked on it. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I was really more asking whether 13 this was one conversation or he was -- he talked 14 about a conversation in the Harbour -- I think he 15 meant Harbour Island Hotel, but -- 16 THE COURT: It depends what the affidavit says. 17 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 18 THE COURT: Is that right, Mr. Prince? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: The affidavit speaks of these 21 things that you have been talking about in different 22 conversations. That would be your testimony if you 23 refreshed your memory? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 428 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q So your memory was better when you wrote this in 3 April than it is in July? 4 A For sure. 5 Q In your affidavit you say Harbor Bay Hotel. That 6 is not Harbour Island Hotel. Do you know where the Harbor 7 Bay Hotel is? 8 A No, I guess not if I am confused about it. It is 9 the one that has the restaurant in there -- well, that means 10 nothing, they all have. Okay, I'm sorry, I spoke out of 11 turn. 12 Q All right. But what I'm saying, when you took the 13 time to sit down and write your affidavit of April 2002, of 14 course you weren't under pressure, being examined in front 15 of a judge in a courtroom. You said you had a calendar in 16 front of you? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. Now, let's jump back again to New York 19 City. All right? 20 A Okay. 21 Q Well, no, I'm sorry. Let's go to the 22 conversations you had with Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks about 23 New York City. 24 Did they tell you what type of things Mr. Rosen 25 said to Mr. Minton at the New York City meetings? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 429 1 A That he was going to jail and actually spoke with 2 him quite loudly about this. That he was going to jail. He 3 was going to be prosecuted in front of Judge Schaeffer and 4 Judge Baird. 5 Mmm, by giving the affidavit, I wrote either 6 Bob -- Mr. Rinder -- he told me -- Bob Minton told me 7 specifically Mr. Rinder said, you know, "Bob, you know I'm 8 f-ing you but I'm doing it to your face. You have people 9 around you that are doing it behind your back." 10 And he mentioned the people that were doing it 11 behind his back being yourself, Patricia Greenway and Peter 12 Alexander. 13 Q Did there come a point in time when Mr. Minton 14 showed you any documents that he received from the Church of 15 Scientology? 16 A Yes. This was when they had -- yeah, now this is 17 after I actually attended the Judge Baird hearing, saw Bob 18 get up on the stand and start lying, and left and went to -- 19 Q All right, I probably jumped the gun. And I 20 apologize. Let's go back. 21 Before we get to the Judge Baird hearing, let's 22 make sure, as far as you can recall today, what transpired 23 when Bob and Stacy came to Florida. 24 A The first time they came to Florida, they were 25 concerned about the hearing in front of Judge Schaeffer. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 430 1 They were meeting with Bruce Howie. They were continuing to 2 meet with Scientology, working on the things that could be 3 done to get these suits dismissed. 4 And I guess part of it was to elicit my 5 cooperation to go along with this new plan to disengage 6 Scientology from Bob Minton. 7 Q Okay. And did Mark Bunker come with them? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And Mark Bunker, did he stay at your house? 10 A Yes, he did. 11 Q Did anyone else stay at your house? 12 A No. 13 Q All right. So did you attend the deposition of 14 Mr. Minton on April 8? 15 A No, I did not. 16 Q All right. So the first time you saw Mr. Minton 17 testify was before Judge Baird? 18 A Correct. 19 Q All right. And you said that you sat in the 20 audience? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q And what did you hear Mr. Minton say you thought 23 was a lie? 24 A Mmm, something about Mr. Dandar making -- telling 25 Bob to perjure himself in relationship to the checks. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 431 1 Q All right. How did you know that was a lie? 2 A Because if that would have happened, I would have 3 known about it when it happened. You know -- 4 Q Why is that? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. I move 6 to strike, "if that would have happened, I would 7 have known about it when it happened." How is that 8 a response? 9 MR. DANDAR: I'm asking him to explain it right 10 now. 11 THE COURT: Yes. Overruled. 12 A If there had been some agreement between 13 Mr. Dandar and Bob Minton to hide the fact that -- the 14 check, I would have known about it when it happened. 15 THE COURT: Are you saying that Mr. Minton 16 would have told you? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is what I'm trying to 18 say. He would have told me when it happened. 19 Now, this coming up after all of this time, 20 when I'm sitting there and he -- you know, he's 21 taking us up to the garage when he gave the check, 22 he's saying this stuff is coming from Europe and you 23 don't know where it is coming from, on and on, now 24 suddenly he changes his mind, I knew it was a lie. 25 Or he told me -- one way or another, he's lying now. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 432 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q All right. What was the next thing he lied about 3 before Judge Baird? 4 A I just got up and just walked out. I couldn't 5 take it. I couldn't believe what was happening. I was 6 extremely distraught. 7 As I say in my affidavit, I actually wept 8 because -- you know, because once again we see the big 9 Scientology machine, with all of its high-priced lawyers and 10 endless resources, endless staff, to make this occur. "We 11 can't get the case dismissed or thrown out in any other way 12 so now let's go manufacture some information." 13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. 14 A Let's create -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: This is pure and utter 16 speculation. 17 THE COURT: Not only that, but I think it is 18 just kind of a discussion what he thinks. And, 19 frankly, I need his testimony, not what he thinks. 20 He can put that in someplace else. 21 That objection is sustained. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Before you walked out of the courtroom, did you 24 hear Mr. Minton say any other lie outside of the Dandar 25 making a lie about the $500,000 check? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 433 1 A No. I got up and left immediately. 2 Q All right. And when is the next time you were 3 talking with Mr. Minton or Stacy Brooks? 4 A After they had left Clearwater. I mean, I just 5 couldn't even stand to be around them anymore. When I saw 6 that that thing happened in front of Judge Baird, I didn't 7 know what to do. 8 And I finally figured that, you know, in my mind 9 something criminal was going on here, I need to do something 10 to help my friends. So I went to visit Mr. Denis deVlaming. 11 And I -- 12 THE COURT: When you say to help your friends, 13 you are talking about your friends Bob Minton and 14 Stacy Brooks? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q So you went, on your own, to Denis's office? 18 A Yes. 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I should not put words 20 in your mouth, either. Obviously you meant 21 Mr. Minton when you say friends. Who was the other 22 friend? 23 THE WITNESS: Mmm, Stacy Brooks. I went to 24 Mr. deVlaming's office and I explained to him that I 25 had been privileged to know that this was going to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 434 1 happen, that this was going to be created and done 2 against you, and I explained the whole thing to him. 3 And his reaction was, "Oh, well, they got him 4 this time." But because he had represented me 5 before, and he had also represented Mr. Minton, he 6 told me that it was a conflict of interest, because 7 I went there to see if I could somehow get law 8 enforcement involved in what was going on here 9 because I was confident that Bob was lying on behalf 10 of Scientology. 11 And I asked him to put me in touch with someone 12 on a federal level, because I believed that 13 Scientology did have influence in the state 14 prosecutor's office. I believed that they were able 15 to somehow enact, somehow, undue influence on 16 prosecutors simply because they never get prosecuted 17 for the things that they do. And I myself, you 18 know, I could have one little small marijuana plant 19 in my house, I'm raided by the DEA. But, you know, 20 a person -- a dead body shows up, they can't do 21 anything. 22 I had no confidence in that. I asked a 23 federal -- asked for federal protection, a federal 24 level, because I said in my mind what they have done 25 is RICO; they have conspired to commit a crime that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 435 1 started in New York, they continued it down here in 2 Clearwater. 3 Bob told me clearly that he was not going to 4 involve his lawyers in the negotiations proper to 5 any degree where they're really getting down to the 6 meat and potatoes. 7 THE COURT: Did Bob tell you why? 8 THE WITNESS: Because they disagreed. 9 Mr. Jonas thought the whole thing was disgusting and 10 distasteful that was going on. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Mr. Minton's lawyer? 13 A Yes. Mr. Jonas, up in Boston. And you notice he 14 has been visibly gone. He didn't want nothing to do with 15 this. 16 So they decided to use Mr. Howie to enact this. 17 And they didn't tell him what was going on. They were 18 happily meeting with these lawyers and without any 19 representation. 20 Q Well, why -- 21 THE COURT: Wait, you said they were happily 22 meeting with these lawyers without representation. 23 What is it you mean? 24 THE WITNESS: The lawyers specifically that Bob 25 and Stacy were meeting with was Sandy Rosen and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 436 1 Monique Yingling. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Did Mr. Minton tell you why he chose not to have 5 Mr. Howie or Mr. Jonas go with him to meet with Mr. Rinder, 6 Mr. Rosen and Ms. Yingling? 7 A Mr. Jonas thought the whole thing was disgusting 8 and distasteful and thought it would be improper. And he 9 told Bob specifically -- and Bob told me he told him -- not 10 to meet with Scientology without representation. 11 Mr. Minton -- Mr. Minton mentioned that Mr. Howie 12 could be used because he didn't really understand what was 13 going on in the first place with -- I mean, and the reason 14 why he didn't understand, it is not because he's a stupid or 15 ignorant person -- but because they weren't giving him all 16 of the information, Bob and Stacy were not telling Mr. Howie 17 everything, they were negotiating with Scientology and 18 telling Mr. Howie what they wanted him to hear. 19 Q But why -- did Mr. Minton explain to you why he 20 chose not to have his attorneys be present at the meetings? 21 THE COURT: I presume you're talking about the 22 meetings in Florida? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 24 THE COURT: And his lawyer down in Florida 25 being Mr. Howie? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 437 1 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Because Mr. Jonas was in New York? 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Yes. Did he tell you why he didn't want Mr. Howie 5 at these meetings? 6 A Mr. Minton expressed to me that he had personally 7 had enough of lawyers, period. And he thought that this is 8 something he needed to do. 9 Q All right. By the way, did Mr. Minton ever appear 10 at a meeting with you, me, Dr. Garko, Stacy Brooks, to talk 11 about adding on David Miscavige? 12 A No. 13 Q Ever? 14 A No. This was the second big point, you know, 15 that -- you know, that Stacy is going on and on, "Jesse, you 16 have to remember, it happened like this." 17 "I told you, you are imagining this. It never 18 happened. I'm not going to sit and lie about this." 19 But this was another point I was supposed to go 20 along with at the meeting. This is where they were really 21 trying to bring me in to find these points to get you, 22 basically. 23 Q Well, what made you not join and continue to be 24 part of the A team, as you call it? 25 A Well -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 438 1 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I -- can we explain 2 what the A team is? Because maybe I missed 3 something. 4 THE COURT: Yes, the A team is Jesse Prince, 5 Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks. They laughingly 6 referred to themselves as the A team. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I guess I was daydreaming. I 8 didn't hear that. Sorry. 9 THE COURT: I did. So I -- I miss some, but I 10 recall that. 11 MR. WEINBERG: You caught that but I missed the 12 A team. Okay. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q So why did you choose not to go along? 15 A Well, Mr. Dandar, for obvious reasons. 16 Number one, I worked for years on this case. I 17 have worked honestly, to the best of my ability, on this 18 case. I assumed that Stacy was, as well. 19 Mmm, I understood that Bob Minton -- Scientology 20 discovered something about him that upset him greatly and 21 had him horribly concerned. But I wasn't going to lie to 22 protect him to hurt someone else. 23 And, in fact, my exact words to Mr. Minton was -- 24 and Mrs. Brooks, that I will never, in my life, help 25 Scientology hurt or destroy one more person. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 439 1 Q When did you tell them that? 2 A After -- after I walked out of Judge Baird's 3 courtroom, and then now they're all looking for me and 4 they're calling around to see if I'm in jail or see if I'm 5 in the hospital. They thought I had a heart attack, because 6 I was visibly upset. I mean, I was shaking when I walked 7 out of that Judge Baird's courtroom. 8 But the thing is I didn't want to see them. I 9 told my fiance, "You tell them to go home where they live 10 because --" excuse this expression "-- they have come and 11 shit all over where I live, I don't want to see them. You 12 go back to where you live and then we'll discuss this." 13 And we discussed it. And when we discussed it, 14 when I got on the phone with them after they got back, that 15 is when I had the conversation and said that to them. "I 16 can't do it." 17 Q Did you meet with them after Judge Baird's hearing 18 in Clearwater? 19 A Yes. I met with them a couple -- not after the 20 Judge Baird hearing. You know, at a later date after that, 21 sure. 22 Q Do you recall meeting with them that following 23 weekend? 24 A It could have been that weekend. Again, I have 25 done the dates here to the best of my recollection, with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 440 1 sitting down with the calendar. But it was after the Judge 2 Baird -- yeah, because Bob had been deposed -- no, wait a 3 minute, I'm confusing incidents now, because by the time 4 they went back, they had already been through the Baird 5 (sic) deposition and they were having the contempt hearing 6 or whatever it was in front of Baird where he lied. 7 So, you know, they came back at a later date. And 8 the discussion was -- after they got back to New Hampshire, 9 I told them how upset I was and how I couldn't do it, and 10 Stacy said to me in no uncertain terms that, "The reason you 11 feel this way is because you don't have all of the 12 information. We've been leaving you out of the loop on some 13 things that you need to know." 14 She said that they had signed some agreement with 15 Scientology, so -- she couldn't tell me everything, but the 16 next step was to bring me back into the circle to make this 17 go away for Bob. 18 And Stacy was just hell bent for leather to do 19 whatever she had to do to disengage Bob from Scientology 20 because she thought it was killing him. 21 Q Did you meet with them in Clearwater then? 22 A Yes, I did. We met at Adam's Mark Hotel. 23 Q At the Adam's Mark Hotel there are two things I 24 want you to talk about. Number one, the conversation. And, 25 number two, any documents you saw. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 441 1 A Well, I hadn't seen Bob. He knew I was furious 2 with him. I hadn't seen Stacy because I was furious with 3 her. But we agreed to meet because we were friends. 4 Friends don't get along every day. It would be nice if you 5 did. But you don't lose a friend because there is a 6 disagreement. 7 So we met. And Bob told me, you know, he said, 8 "Look, Jesse, you know, I'm not sure that this is gonna 9 work, either. Stacy is more confident about doing this than 10 I am. I don't know." We were kind of having that 11 discussion. 12 Then the phone rang. Mr. Minton spoke with 13 someone and he said, "Okay, leave it at the desk" and he 14 hung up the phone. 15 And I asked him what that was. 16 And he said Scientology was delivering to him a 17 packet of information that had to do with his prior 18 deposition testimony -- or prior testimony, that amounted to 19 about 11 inches, for him to go through for the purpose of 20 finding more things for him to -- Mmm -- quote/unquote, 21 recant or do whatever he was going to do. 22 There was total -- I asked him, "How many things 23 besides Wollersheim and the Lisa McPherson case, what else 24 do they want you to do? Do you know when your leash is over 25 with, where they get done with you? Okay, you think if you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 442 1 destroy Ken, that will make you safe. But what else are 2 they going to have you do? Do you know?" 3 He said he didn't know, but this package 4 represented six to seven other things that they wanted him 5 to change testimony about or -- or say something different 6 about. 7 Q Did you see this package? 8 A Mmm, no. 9 Q How do you know it was 11 inches high? 10 A He told me. 11 Q Okay. 12 A And he also told me at that time that his 13 attorney, Steve Jonas, told him not to meet with Scientology 14 concerning that package without representation, but he was 15 going to do it anyway -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- because he's taking control. 18 Q Did you ever see any lawsuits that Mr. Minton was 19 given where Scientology was suing him or contemplating suing 20 him? 21 A He had a rough draft of a RICO suit that he showed 22 me. It was about this thick. 23 Q How many inches is that? 24 A It was about maybe an inch, inch and a quarter, 25 something like that. And he -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 443 1 Q All right. 2 A -- flipped through it like this. And he would 3 never physically give it to me. He said -- and we all 4 predicted they were going to do some crazy RICO thing. He 5 said, "They finally did it. Here is the RICO thing. We 6 already have the Armstrong thing. They are suing me for 7 80 million which I'll be liable for, here is the -- another 8 RICO, that is another 110 million. They are adding me as a 9 defendant in the breach of contract. And," he said, "I'm 10 the only person with money. I have got to get out of this." 11 Q Okay. Now, did you at any time tell Mr. Minton or 12 Ms. Brooks that you were willing to meet with Scientology? 13 A Yes. 14 Q When was that? 15 A Mmm, at the Adam's Mark Hotel when they -- you 16 know, what they call bringing me into the circle. 17 And I'm looking at these people that I have worked 18 with for years and I might as well have been looking at 19 strangers, because Stacy has this whole thing lined up. 20 She -- you know, she knows exactly what is going to happen, 21 who is going to do what. And Bob is kind of like following 22 along because he's just at his wit's end. And Stacy figures 23 that she knew Mike Rinder for a long time and they were good 24 friends and she's just going to make this as good for Bob as 25 possible. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 444 1 And, to me, she just delivered Bob into the hands 2 of his enemies. 3 Q Did Stacy Brooks ever -- in all of the years you 4 have known her, did she ever say to you, "I filed a false 5 declaration or affidavit"? 6 A Never in a million years. To the contrary, Stacy 7 is fully aware that part of, you know, Scientology's 8 intelligence operations are to get rid of the lawsuit in any 9 way possible. You know, whether you actually have real 10 evidence, get rid of it, or you manufacture it or you bring 11 up enough threat where the person just wants to be done with 12 it. She knows this because it happened to her. 13 Q When? 14 A December of 1999 she did an affidavit about it, 15 about the same people, Mr. Rinder, Mr. Sutter, coming in, 16 wanting them to change testimony, offering money. 17 THE COURT: We have had testimony about that. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. All right. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Well, did she ever say -- I just wanted to touch 21 on that. Did she ever say that Mr. Rinder was actually 22 telling her the truth about attacking Graham Berry and 23 Graham Berry did something bad? 24 A No. But what she did mention to me, she said, 25 "You know, after speaking with Mr. Rinder, you know, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 445 1 always thought in the Fishman case --" where she appeared as 2 an expert, she said she always thought that because they 3 tried to add Miscavige on as a party, that that made 4 Scientology want to instantly settle because, you know, 5 hands off from Miscavige, he's the ecclesiastical leader of 6 the Church, Sea Org, on and on. 7 So she said that after speaking with Mr. Rinder, 8 she came to realize that it wasn't adding Miscavige that 9 caused the suit to be settled in the way it was. After 10 talking with Mr. Rinder she came to understand that it was 11 because of the introduction of Scientology's upper levels at 12 which they commonly call it as being trade secrets that was 13 the real issue at hand. 14 Q Okay. Did Stacy Brooks ever say that her 15 affidavits that she filed about Mr. Rinder offering her and 16 her husband over $200,000 to change their testimony -- did 17 she ever tell you that Mr. Rinder's version of what her 18 declaration should be was true versus what Mr. Berry had her 19 sign? 20 A Mmm, no. We -- I mean, I had read that 21 information before that she had done this. And at this 22 point in time at the Adam's Mark Hotel, Stacy was not an 23 obvious target. They were working on Bob Minton. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Stacy was incidental at that point. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 446 1 Q All right. 2 A It wasn't contemplated for her to change her 3 testimony. It was Minton to do it. 4 5 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Bob Minton, 6 for instance, let's go to that night, the Adam's Mark Hotel, 7 where he's talking about the $500,000 UBS check and what he 8 told you in the parking lot about it? 9 A Oh, I brought that up to him. You know, they were 10 saying, you know, "Ken is really going to get it. He told 11 me to lie about this check." 12 I said, "Wait a minute, Bob, let me remind you --" 13 he and Stacy are like gleeful children, like all 14 responsibility is gone. "Hee-hee. Guess what?" 15 "Are you insane? We were both on the parking lot. 16 Bob got you and me out of the office, said he was giving 17 this check to Ken, Ken didn't know where it was coming from, 18 told us it was from people from Europe. I mean, why are you 19 gleefully now telling me somehow this is Ken's fault?" 20 Q What did they say? 21 A They just looked at me like, "Oh, yeah, we forgot 22 about that part." Mmm, they were telling me things like, 23 "We really got him now." 24 I said, "But don't you remember what we did? 25 Don't you remember this is what really happened as opposed Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 447 1 to this story you are making up now? Do you remember what 2 actually happened?" 3 Q What was their response? 4 A "Hmmm." You know, just "Hmmm." Like, "He's not 5 cooperating." 6 Q So -- 7 A So I told him, you know, "Now, you know we were up 8 in the parking lot. We went through this whole thing. So 9 now what do you want me to say what happened now, when this 10 is what did happen? What am I supposed to do?" 11 THE COURT: What did he say? 12 THE WITNESS: He just looked at me like I was 13 crazy. And they looked at each other and they 14 changed the subject. We started talking about -- 15 Mmm -- what else did we start talking about? 16 They brought up something else that -- the 17 meeting, yeah, oh, and the other thing they want -- 18 "they" being Rinder and Rosen, the other thing they 19 want brought out is how Minton was supposedly at 20 some meeting that happened where we all said, "Yeah, 21 add Miscavige and don't talk to anybody about it." 22 I am like, "Are you crazy? That didn't happen 23 either." 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q So when you told them it didn't happen -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 448 1 A Then they said, "Look, let's stop talking about 2 this. Let's go to dinner. We've made some progress." 3 But, on the other hand, I'm thinking, "I have to 4 talk to somebody from Scientology about this," because 5 obviously I'm looking at Bob and Stacy, they are just 6 convinced that I'm just going to to-to-to, go along with 7 this. They are just convinced. 8 They are telling me -- Stacy said, "Look, we're 9 going to do this, it is unpleasant, but we'll put all this 10 behind us. You won't have worry -- money problems anymore, 11 you'll have plenty of money, you'll be taken care of, you 12 know, and --" 13 THE COURT: Who was going to give you the 14 money? 15 THE WITNESS: The same -- your Honor, the same 16 person that has been, Bob Minton. They have been 17 taking care of everything. 18 (Discussion had off the record.) 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q So this was -- then you went out to dinner? 21 A Yes. We went out to dinner and we just kind of 22 changed the subject because it was getting heated. You 23 know, I'm trying to find a scintilla of logic of what is 24 going on here. And I can't -- I can't even imagine -- I 25 can't even make myself imagine what they are talking about Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 449 1 here. 2 Then I told Bob, I said, "Bob, isn't this 3 strange --" 4 (Discussion had off the record.) 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q So Bob Minton said -- 7 A I keep losing my train of thought. 8 Q I know. Sorry. Maybe we should read it back. 9 (A discussion was held off the record.) 10 (Last answer read back by the reporter.) 11 THE WITNESS: Repeat the last line again. 12 (Last answer reread by the reporter.) 13 A I got it. Because I started talking to them, I 14 said, "Well, look, we had further discussions about 15 Wollersheim, too." 16 And I said, "Well, you have loaned Lawrence money 17 to continue his case. Now you're going after him. You have 18 given all of this money against Ken Dandar. Now you are 19 going after him. Don't you think it is obvious what has 20 happened here? Don't you think it is going to be obvious to 21 all concerned that something bad happened here?" 22 His response was, you know, "I'm not convinced. 23 Stacy is convinced this is going to work, Jesse. I'm not 24 convinced about it. And I feel bad what is going on with 25 Ken." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 450 1 My thing was, okay, I have to talk to somebody 2 about Scientology about this because obviously these two 3 things -- I have a ring in my nose and they have a leash. I 4 have to let Scientology know they're not going to get away 5 with this, this is not going to work. 6 THE COURT: Who was it -- you are saying you 7 had the ring through your nose and they had a leash? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is an analogy of what 9 seemingly was in their minds. 10 THE COURT: "Their" meaning Bob Minton and 11 Stacy Brooks? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Thought they had the leash and were 14 leading you around. 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 THE COURT: You thought you had to tell 17 Scientology that wasn't accurate? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 A So I'm going along now with this whole thing. I 21 said, "Look," I told them, "Okay, I'll do it. Okay, I'll do 22 it. Tell me --" because they said, "We have to bring you 23 in. You have to meet with Mike Rinder now. You have to 24 meet him face-to-face and go over this and you are going to 25 be happy like us." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 451 1 "Okay. Okay." 2 I tell you, I left that Adam's Mark Hotel and I 3 felt like, "Oh, my God." You know, I would rather be doing 4 anything. But ultimately I came home and I told my fiance, 5 I said, "Look, it is over. I can't do it anymore. I have 6 to let Ken know. I have to call somebody." 7 So I called Frank Oliver and told him the whole 8 story of what had been going on the whole time and told him 9 to please tell Ken, and I'm so sorry what happened to him. 10 I sat in Judge Baird's courtroom and it upset me 11 greatly, and asked him to arrange for you and I to meet, at 12 which point you called me and we met the Sunday. 13 And I was supposed to meet with Bob and Stacy and 14 Mike Rinder that time. And I told them, "Yes, I'm going to 15 go along with your plan." 16 And as I state here in my affidavit and I said to 17 you to your face, I just want to see Mike Rinder's face when 18 he finds out that this isn't going to work if he thinks he's 19 going to use me to do this thing. 20 So we have that meeting -- 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q You and I had a meeting? 23 A You and I had the meeting. And Mr. Lirot was 24 there. 25 Q Right. Right. And then you went to meet with Bob Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 452 1 and Stacy and, you thought, Mike Rinder? 2 A I thought Mike Rinder would be there. So what 3 happens, now they moved hotels, they moved to the Radisson 4 on Clearwater Beach. I guess they didn't like the Adam's 5 Mark. So we are at the Radisson. 6 And he has this big sheaf of papers. And he said, 7 "Jesse, you are unreal. Let me show you what Judge 8 Schaeffer is saying about you." And he read something that, 9 to me, was totally uncomprehensible. 10 And he said, "See, she doesn't trust you. You are 11 not credible in her eyes. You are going to jail if you 12 don't do what we tell you to do." 13 I said, "Bob, I think you're the one going to 14 jail. You're the one lying. You're the one that has 15 already went in court and lied. And you want me to do it? 16 I think you're the one going to jail." 17 Oh, my God, it gets hot. "Okay, let's go down to 18 dinner." 19 Then I sit and I explained to them, I said, "Look, 20 let me tell you specific experiences I have personally had 21 making deals with Scientology. Let me tell you the 22 results." 23 I told them painstakingly some awful things if I 24 even started to mention, I am sure Mr. Weinberg would be up 25 in a flash. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 453 1 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor, I would like to 2 hear exactly what he said he told Mr. Minton about 3 all these awful experiences. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Okay. Go ahead. 6 A I told him about the time I was removed from that 7 position you saw me on the video with the sailor clothes, on 8 and on. I told them about the circumstances about me being 9 removed from there. 10 THE COURT: I'm not sure I saw that. 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was the first day 12 I was here, Miscavige introduces me, I'm telling him 13 I'm from RTC and we are going to get the squirrels 14 and what do the squirrels mean. 15 THE COURT: I remember. 16 MR. DANDAR: This is the New Year's Eve speech. 17 THE COURT: Right. I remember now. 18 A Well, how I got removed from that position. I'm 19 telling him the story where Miscavige wants to come in and 20 get rid of Broeker because he thinks Broeker is crazy. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q So you were caught in between Broeker and 23 Miscavige? 24 A Yes. And I told them, either one, "I don't want 25 anything to do with either one of you," because when I got Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 454 1 involved myself in doing illegal activities, with listening 2 to wiretapping and, you know, all of this crazy stuff I'm 3 being shown how to do, I'm cutting my teeth, I am being 4 broken into OSA, this is no Scientology that I ever knew 5 anything about. 6 You know, I don't want nothing to do with this 7 part of it. I didn't even know it happened where they do 8 this stuff to people. 9 Mmm, and then, you know, they -- because I didn't 10 go along with that, I'm woken up at 5 o'clock in the 11 morning, there is -- there is Miscavige standing there, 12 there is Lymon Sperlock, Ray Mithoff, Mike Sutter, Greg 13 Wilheir (phonetic), his brother, security guards. There are 14 about 12 people there. 15 I walk into Miscavige's office, and there is Vicki 16 Aznaran, the person that used to be inspector general of 17 RTC, just crying in the corner, crumpled. They are all in 18 their Sea Org uniforms just like, grrr. And I'm running 19 around with something that looks like pajamas. 20 And he told me, "You didn't go along with this, 21 you wouldn't follow me, now you are going to the RPF. You 22 call me sir. You have been disrespectful." 23 I stood up and told him to go to hell and went and 24 tried to leave, at which point they tried to grab me. And 25 me and Judge Moody has been through this story before so I'm Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 455 1 not telling a new story. 2 And I ran to my bedroom and I got a Mini 14 3 assault rifle I had been given for my birthday from L. Ron, 4 and a .45, loaded in both, went back to that office, and I 5 have them like this (indicating). And now they are standing 6 there like -- oh, Norman Starkey was there. And Norman 7 says, "Jesse, you traitor. You can't kill us all." 8 And I said, "Well, I'll tell you what, maybe not, 9 but you will certainly be the first to go." 10 And I'm standing there with these guns. Then 11 Miscavige, because he and I used to be very good friends, 12 too, he and I were very good friends at one point in time, 13 he came over and he said, "Jesse, look, this is horrible, 14 let's stop this." 15 He knew I wasn't going to do anything. He walked 16 right up to me. He told all those other jerks, "Get out of 17 here, I have got to talk to Jesse." 18 So we go down to the ship and we have a 19 conversation. And he tells me, "Jesse, I know this all 20 seems horrible now, but I need you to take this fall. I 21 need you to be a head on a pike." Head on a pike is a term 22 in Scientology where somebody takes a fall for Scientology. 23 Put a head on the pike means if you are going through the 24 gate, you end up like this, head on the pike. 25 "I want you to be the head on the pike." He Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 456 1 wanted me to go to RPF. You know, Vicky and Rick really 2 screwed things up with the Broekers and conspired about him, 3 yik-yik and on and on. And he said, "Look, this will be 4 over, you'll be restored to your position," on and on. 5 "Oh, okay, Dave, I do it." We talked. I 6 willingly once again go to the damn concentration camp. 7 Once again. Like eighteen months wasn't long enough. Now 8 I'm in there again. 9 What immediately happens? Miscavige starts 10 issuing this horrible stuff about me, "He's terrible, he's a 11 piece of crap." 12 I stood up and walked out of that place, went to 13 that base and said, "Look, if this is the way you want to 14 play this, I'm going to the police, I'm going to go talk to 15 them about what you do here." 16 Oh, my God, all them issues are canceled. No, 17 Jesse is good again. "Jesse, I'm sorry." It is always 18 someone's fault, someone else acted in an unauthorized 19 manner and put these things out. 20 Okay, he got rid of all of that stuff. I mean, I 21 had to have something to show for being in Scientology 16 22 years. Every certificate I had -- I had a wall from top to 23 bottom, at least half of that, of everything I have ever 24 done in Scientology used to be in my office. 25 And, Mmm, so I ended up going back to the RPF. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 457 1 Oh, no, we straighten it all out again. That was one 2 instance. 3 Just lying. Just can't wait to get me in a 4 position to where I am incapacitated to do something. 5 The second time I'm trying to leave Scientology, 6 "Look, you guys can do this. Do whatever you want to do, 7 you know. You want to do this activity? I don't want to do 8 it anymore. I just want to take me and my wife and leave, 9 just be away." 10 Well, of course that didn't happen. I had to be 11 degraded for four and a half months, locked up, sec-checked, 12 told to divorce my wife. I have written about this, too. 13 Finally, I leave. 14 THE COURT: What did you say, seg-checked? 15 THE WITNESS: Sec, security checked. Being 16 interrogated on the E-meter. 17 A Well, what happens, as soon as I leave, they have 18 someone that is a tail on me that works for this Scientology 19 business who, because I won't continue to do Scientology and 20 their business, now I'm no good. You know, I have come in 21 there and boomed that business. I was hired, I was on 22 salary making $60,000 or $70,000 a year. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Are you talking about the artwork business? 25 A Yes, the artwork business. But people from RTC Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 458 1 would call me once or twice a week. Mike Sutter, RTC, 2 "Jesse, how are you doing?" 3 So now they want me to do Scientology work where 4 they want me to do cramming, do correction, yik-yik, on and 5 on. 6 I said, "Look, I have left that. I'm not doing 7 that anymore. Let me just do a regular job. I'm just doing 8 a regular job now, not using the Scientology mess, and 9 everything is going fine. You know, don't fix something 10 when it is not broke." 11 No, that is not good enough, that gets reported to 12 RTC. Now I have to get removed and now I have to go through 13 endless crap. 14 It finally culminated losing my job, having to 15 start my own business, being followed around every place in 16 Minneapolis, because I travel a lot. Then one day I found a 17 bag right outside my hotel room, like this (indicating), 18 Rock cocaine. 19 THE COURT: How big? 20 THE WITNESS: Huh? 21 THE COURT: You are showing it. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Tell -- 24 A Like this (indicating). 25 THE COURT: Say for the record, is that the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 459 1 size of a baseball? 2 THE WITNESS: About the size of a softball. 3 THE COURT: About the size of a softball? 4 THE WITNESS: With individually little crack 5 cocaines. 6 A And I'm like, uh-uh, this is it. 7 So, to me, I'd already been through enough 8 betrayal with Scientology. And I explained this to 9 them. 10 THE COURT: This is just -- all that cocaine 11 just sitting outside your hotel room? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. And the fact of the 13 matter is, your Honor, it is known that I had, you 14 know, smoked marijuana before or whatever, but if 15 anyone in my family -- because my brother tried 16 it -- does cocaine, he did it, had a double 17 aneurysm. I sat in the hospital a month while they 18 cut off his dreadlocks, peeled his skin back, cut 19 his scalp, went through his brain, cauterized two 20 microscopic veins because his head exploded from 21 fooling around with crap, and put it all back 22 together. 23 And the reason they said it happened to him, 24 something genetically in our family that makes those 25 veins do that. What do I want to do with cocaine Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 460 1 for? It is just -- 2 THE COURT: I think we're far afield. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Is this what -- all these 4 incidents you told Mr. Minton? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm telling all this to 6 Mr. Minton. I said, "In the end you may think --" 7 and I told him, "As you sit here you can't tell me 8 when Scientology is going to be done with you. When 9 are they going to be finished having you done 10 whatever they want you to do? All you know, you 11 have Wollersheim and you have McPherson." 12 He said, "Jesse, you are being unreal." He got 13 mad. He cursed at me and said something. And his 14 last words were, "Well, fuck it, you're going to 15 jail." 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Did you use the same language back at him? 18 A I said, "Bob, I'm sorry, you're going to jail. 19 Stacy, you're going to jail. I'm not having anything to do 20 with this." 21 I got up -- he asked me to leave. He said, "Get 22 out." 23 I said, "Fine." 24 Stacy follows me in the parking lot. She said, 25 "You know, after all of the things Bob has done for you, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 461 1 this is how you treat him?" 2 I'm looking, "What in the hell has Bob done for me 3 that I have to perjure myself, I have to become a criminal 4 because he thinks this is what I got to do to save him? 5 Uh-uh. He's not done anything for me. And there is only 6 one person can sell my soul. That is me. I already sold my 7 soul to this organization one time and I got it back. Bob 8 Minton is in no position to offer my soul to them." 9 And I told her that. And we really haven't talked 10 that much since. 11 Q Well, now, was there a point in time when Bob 12 Minton was coming over to your house after that for 13 barbecue? 14 A Well, again, we have been friends a long time. 15 This was another bridge of disagreement, blowup, everybody 16 cursing, but we have such history. Even as I sit here 17 today, I can't fathom not talking to him once or twice a 18 week. 19 So, you know, we're talking again. "Look --" 20 Stacy said, "Look, this is going to blow over with or 21 without you. We're going to make sure." 22 So I said, "Okay, well, then if we're not doing 23 this, could we still be friends?" 24 They love to come over to the house. We barbecue 25 and have little parties. "Sure." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 462 1 But then he called his lawyer and he was told not 2 to come. 3 Q This is while the hearing is going on in this 4 courtroom? 5 A Yes. They want to tell me what is going on. They 6 want me to be a part of it because I have been since the 7 beginning. But I can't because of what they're doing. 8 Q Did Bob Minton want to close down the LMT? 9 A No. 10 Q Whose idea was that? 11 A I don't think it was any one person's idea. Well, 12 if it was anybody's idea, I think it was Stacy's, because 13 the LMT was being used as a vehicle to get to Bob. And -- 14 THE COURT: I think it sounds -- this must be 15 allowed to start at 4:30, but it is giving me a 16 headache. Is this a good stopping point? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes -- I'm sorry. 18 MR. DANDAR: This would be -- this would be 19 fine. 20 THE COURT: They probably are allowed to start 21 up at 4:30. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I thought I was having a ringing 23 in my ears, which I do have an ear issue. 24 THE COURT: So we'll go ahead and quit. We'll 25 start up at 9 o'clock. Mr. Prince -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 463 1 MR. WEINBERG: Remember you said ten? 2 THE COURT: Oh, I did. Ten o'clock tomorrow. 3 Ten o'clock tomorrow. I think I told you this 4 before, but if I didn't, let me remind you: While 5 you are on the witness stand, I did give you 6 permission to speak with Mr. Dandar because of the 7 long break, but now, like overnight, you and he 8 can't talk. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Okay? I mean, you can talk about 11 something else, but you can't talk anything about 12 your testimony or about this case. Of course you 13 can't talk to the other side, you can't talk to 14 anybody while you are on the stand about this case 15 or your testimony. Okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I understand 17 that. 18 THE COURT: We shall be in recess. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have one issue on the 20 E-Mails. And I'll be really quick. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: There are, to my understanding, 23 about 3,000 E-Mails. And during the break -- 24 THE COURT: Have you-all come up with any 25 agreement as to a list? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 464 1 MR. FUGATE: That is what I want to talk to you 2 about. I went over to see, there is a list that 3 prints out all of the ones that they were able to 4 recover from the various hard drives. And I have 5 found a series of -- on that list of E-Mails that 6 related to Peter Alexander and Patricia Greenway, 7 and I have left a list of those with Mr. Keane. 8 And then I understand that Mr. Dandar indicated 9 that those shouldn't be produced because 10 Ms. Greenway is a consultant. And, you know, in 11 this hearing he said she wasn't. 12 I don't really care what she is today. But 13 back during the time that she was at LMT prior to 14 this hearing beginning, which is where all these 15 E-Mails generate from, I don't think they would be 16 covered as a consultant -- 17 THE COURT: Counsel, I can't deal with 18 something that won't be agreed to with this noise. 19 That is why I stopped this hearing. We'll take this 20 up first thing in the morning, and hopefully we 21 won't have any noise and we'll get it done then. 22 Ten o'clock tomorrow. Bring it to my attention 23 then. 24 MR. FUGATE: All right. 25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you all. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 465 1 (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:50 p.m.) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 466 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 9th day of July, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25